Next year is win-win.

[R0CKnR0LLA]

The Bucs are pretty much in this exact situation right now. They fell apart at the end of the year, so their HC and QB are gone. I wouldn't exactly call what's happened to them a "win-win".

My attitude is always, if we can bring in someone better, do it. If we can't, keep the guy we've got. I see a lot of fans with that mentality of, "we lose and the HC/QB needs to go", regardless of if they can get anyone better. Really seems like a "cut off your nose to spite your face" type of attitude.

[rayzor]

i'm a pragmatist as far as this is concerned. i want a solution. i want the right solution. there will be options available. good ones. sometimes a change will do you good. a fresh face and mentality can do wonders. is that what is needed? i don't know.

the coaching and QB position shouldn't be a revolving door but it should be a door to disneyland. we might have the right door and we might have the wrong door. we'll have a better idea after the season.

btw...can't really compare TB with us in this situation. they had done a horrible job of building a team. they were running on fumes and had an aging team with very little developing of talent. that was something that gruden just didn't do and it gave them a very old team. i was hoping that he would stay. made life easier, especially with the knowledge that kiffin was gone, not that he was going to be a factor anymore after the last game against us.

bucs have to start over from scratch. we have the luxury of a good young team. i would rather us not get to the point that the bucs got before we made our turnaround in leadership.

[R0CKnR0LLA]

Oh I agree that a fresh face and mentality can do wonders. But I don't think you make that move until you have a guy lined up that you are confidant can do it. Or at the very least, be an upgrade over the guy you have now.

It's just like after the playoff game, all these fans were screaming "CUT JAKE!" It's like, Umm.. OK.. We're gonna start McCown then? About the only snap he took all year was a 4th quarter kneel down, and he got a penalty on that play :lol:

[top dawg]

If we play well and are in the hunt at the end Fox will be here for the future. Everyone wants to win a Championship but in the end only 1 team does. If that were the litmus test for every coach, there would be a turnover of 31 coaches every year.

You keep Fox because he is a good coach and the team wins many more than they lose. After all how long did it take Cowher for example to win a Super bowl? How many did he win after that one? By many of the huddlers here, Cowher should have been canned long before he won one.

I know what point you are trying to make, and it's good in theory. But, you can't really use the championship litmus test for 31 teams because 31 teams don't have a realistic opportunity to become champion. It may just be a matter of perception, but the Panthers have been a valid contender at least 3 years in franchise history (if not for or five), and last years team was arguably the most talented team that we have ever had (I said "talented", not the most experienced). The squad is certainly highly talented on the offensive side of the ball, and to lay an egg like we did against Arizona was pretty unbelievable and speaks to a lack of preparation. In my opinion, the difference between Cowher and Fox is that Cowher's teams always seemed to come out prepared, even if they were not the best team on paper. You never saw a Bill Cowher coached team just get crushed the way that we were manhandled in the loss to the Cardinals. Cowher's teams always seemed highly motivated even in losses, while Fox's teams (as well as Fox himself) seem bewildered sometimes as to WTF is going on. Moreover, Cowher got rid of O'Donnell and especially his much beloved Kordell Stewart when they did not produce the desired result, while Fox clings to Delhomme like a fly on a turd. This fact alone is reason enough to can Fox in the minds of many fans.

All this being said, I don't think I'd get rid of Fox at this point either (unless Cowher displayed a true interest), but does that mean that he should get a free pass if our teams continue to win between nine and twelve games per season for the next 10 years without winning a championship? I don't know. I wouldn't think so. Marty Schottenheimer and Mike Shananhan are arguably better coaches than Fox, and they were shown the door (rightly or wrongly). Like most positions of authority, at some point you have to piss or get of the pot, and Fox is going to have to do his thing a little better than he has done of late.

[Ashor]

You're right... my bad. Fox is a terrible coach. You're ignorant. The most stability this franchise has had is under Fox, and it looks to be headed in an even better direction. Solid OL with continuity, stellar power running game, good special teams, solid D with a need of a little touching up. And consistantly better drafting and handling of personnel. But really, lets just can everyone and hope they can do a better job

You're a child toucher.

[Nu Guns]

Its not that Fox is a horrible coach, he just has a conservative coaching style. Some people dont like that.

I love that we have a great running game, but we are not the Denver,Dallas,Buffalo of the 90's. We do not have the passing game to suit the great rb duo. This town is so thirsty for a team that can roll down the field consistantly,and not always have to rely on big plays to win games. That last playoff game was the most excited I have seen the city in a long a time, and the whole city watched that game. Are weakness was really exposed on the national stage. We have a lot of migrant fans down here to win over and Fox is not the coach to do that. ( He is good a clapping though):biggrinjester:

I know Cower seems to be the obvious choice but his coaching style is very simliar to Fox's. Although I think Cower runs a smash mouth team to the T.

Gruden is the answer.

I know the pro jake crowd do not like him , but he is a winner. He really lead the Raiders to two superbowls ( damn tuck rule) and thats no easy task with Al Davis calling all the shots. Then goes to Tampa and wins a superbowl. Whats wrong with Gruden? Keyshawn was a spoiled cry baby. Gruden had Rich Gannon and he never found a QB in Tampa that matched his skill set. Isnt that the major complaint with him...that he is too fickle with his Qbs? Gruden loves to develop Qb's and runs exciting football teams.

[Ashor]

Its not that Fox is a horrible coach, he just has a conservative coaching style. Some people dont like that.

I love that we have a great running game, but we are not the Denver,Dallas,Buffalo of the 90's. We do not have the passing game to suit the great rb duo. This town is so thirsty for a team that can roll down the field consistantly,and not always have to rely on big plays to win games. That last playoff game was the most excited I have seen the city in a long a time, and the whole city watched that game. Are weakness was really exposed on the national stage. We have a lot of migrant fans down here to win over and Fox is not the coach to do that. ( He is good a clapping though):biggrinjester:

I know Cower seems to be the obvious choice but his coaching style is very simliar to Fox's. Although I think Cower runs a smash mouth team to the T.

Gruden is the answer.

I know the pro jake crowd do not like him , but he is a winner. He really lead the Raiders to two superbowls ( damn tuck rule) and thats no easy task with Al Davis calling all the shots. Then goes to Tampa and wins a superbowl. Whats wrong with Gruden? Keyshawn was a spoiled cry baby. Gruden had Rich Gannon and he never found a QB in Tampa that matched his skill set. Isnt that the major complaint with him...that he is too fickle with his Qbs? Gruden loves to develop Qb's and runs exciting football teams.

Delete this post while you still have the chance.

[Jangler]

Nu Guns = LBF

[DaveThePanther2008]

Let's say we replace Fox. Who are you going to bring in. A proven winner like Cowher? Gruden? Holmgren? Nope been there done that with Siefert. We saw what a disaster that was. How about bringing in offensive or defensive Guru say like Dom Capers...oopps already did that too?

Making changes doesn't mean it is a solution.

Fox has done a great job for us. As I posted in another thread we are 63-49 with him. 7th best record in all of football since the inception of the 4 division format. The job he did in 04 was nothing short of incredible. We could have tanked the entire season and he would have still had the job. He kept us going and almost got us in the playoffs. I remember them saying "No one will want to face Carolina if they make it" We were playing well. Same thing in 07.

Whether you like it or not. John Fox is playing Jerry Richardson football. As long as he has control of the locker room and keeps us in games. He'll be wearing that Panther Polo shirt on Sunday afternoon.

Go Panthers

[Fireball77]

Gruden is the answer.

I know the pro jake crowd do not like him , but he is a winner. He really lead the Raiders to two superbowls ( damn tuck rule) and thats no easy task with Al Davis calling all the shots. Then goes to Tampa and wins a superbowl. Whats wrong with Gruden? Keyshawn was a spoiled cry baby. Gruden had Rich Gannon and he never found a QB in Tampa that matched his skill set. Isnt that the major complaint with him...that he is too fickle with his Qbs? Gruden loves to develop Qb's and runs exciting football teams.

What's wrong with him is that his coaching style wears on his players mightily in a short time. I think the guy is a good offensive mind, but probably better suited to being an OC than a HC. How many SBs would he have won had he not had to keep one of the best DCs in the NFL? Hard to say. I do think he pushed them over the hump that year, but the Bucs have not won ONE playoff game after that SB season in 2002. Is that your definition of a HC who is probably or even potentially SO MUCH better than Fox that he should replace him? It isn't mine.

As for that whole "exciting football" thing, I don't buy into that at all. Exciting =big passing #s (and musical QBs I guess???) in your book. Big passing #s does not =exciting in my book. Why? Because it doesn't lead to SB wins. I am excited when the team has a defense that whoops azz, I am excited when I watch Williams and Stewart demoralize defenses (because that is what running all over a team does to them, we saw it from the other side vs the NYG). I like the passing game to be a nice complement that generates some big plays and helps move the chains. That's it. I know you say you are also a Bills fan so if you were so when Polian was there, I get why you love that big passing O thing. However, there were no SBs won there with that either. Even Gruden won his SB with a kind of a no name QB (who I happened to think was better in his day than most people did but I digress). I don't seriously think most of you who disparage Fox's ability would be that much happier to have 4 SB appearances with zero rings, but I could be wrong.

Bottom line, if it is Foxy's time to go, I still want a defensive minded HC to replace him as a HC. Not saying I wouldn't consider an offensive guy, you consider anyone you think might be better...but I think that usually makes a team have a better chance of winning consistently. Either a defensive minded HC or an offensive one with a great DC (Coughlin, Reid, heck even Gruden was this when they won their SB).

[Nu Guns]

Nice reply, and a good post fireball. I agree with just about everything you said.

I just think Gruden should be considered if Fox has a bad season. Cower too had several years that did not work out during his time at Pitt. Your spot on about the Bills, I want that K-Gun offense down here in Carolina. I do understand we do not have all the components needed to run that style of offense at this time. I do not mean to appear that I only love an exciting offense, because thats not true. There was a hell of a defense on the other side of that k-gun offense. Again, I do not think Fox is a bad coach. I dont like his some of his player decisions , but no one is perfect.

[Udogg]

Your allowed to say something against the Panthers. If you can verbally insult someone, insulting the Panthers is nowhere as bad. And yea its all good, even with what you just said... that doesnt change the fact that you guys aren't #1 in any system in the NFL. Fine with me.

Without Kiffin the bucs won't win 6 games next year. I will take our mediocre offense, horrible qb, below average defense, and slightly above average running game against anything the bucs have. I mean anything. Short of rudd and phillips your team is garbage. It's going to be so satisfying seeing you bucs die a slow painful death this season. Your only purpose of being here is to try and make us feel as bad about our team as you feel about yours.

[R0CKnR0LLA]

I give a big... :dita: :ciappa: to Gruden

Hell, I'd rather have Kiffin than Gruden

[Fireball77]

Nice reply, and a good post fireball. I agree with just about everything you said.

I just think Gruden should be considered if Fox has a bad season. Cower too had several years that did not work out during his time at Pitt. Your spot on about the Bills, I want that K-Gun offense down here in Carolina. I do understand we do not have all the components needed to run that style of offense at this time. I do not mean to appear that I only love an exciting offense, because thats not true. There was a hell of a defense on the other side of that k-gun offense. Again, I do not think Fox is a bad coach. I dont like his some of his player decisions , but no one is perfect.

Fair enough. But there's a reason that defensive gameplan that pretty much stonewalled the K-gun in the Bills' last SB is in the HOF.