Panthers vs. Cowboys MNF

[Lone Buc Fan]

Yea I know about Flip's change over, I'm glad you know who he is... people been trashing on him since I've got here. I atleast give your players respect, most Panthers fans say all the Buccaneers players are garbage, which makes them look like dumbasses for not knowing who a quality player is...

I gave Dallas the edge at the LB spot because they force more pressure with their linebackers, they have arguablly the top defensive playmaker at OLB with a good suppourting cast of linebackers there that haven't been brought into the conversation. Carolina's linebackers are good tacklers but they don't seem to really make any notable plays or stop the other team for driving down the field.

With teams mainly passing on Carolina last year, it didn't help the Panthers case that they had a bad pass defense and that partially is to blame on the linebackers as if they aren't getting sacks and the other team passes.. they are forced to play coverage, which they weren't doing a good enough job of doing that.

Dallas's linebackers really only had one bad showing (The Ravens) and had bigger playmakers at the OLB spot. Then you have multiple Panthers fans saying the Cowboys have a better defensive line, thats not me just saying that.

Beason could have forced more footballs to pop out though if he was anything more then a solid tackler, can we agree on that?.. Beason is more of a solid tackler then a hard hitting MLB like a Ray Lewis type. I'd just rather take a core of linebackers who force the offense to make mistakes, over guys who sit in a zone and wait for the Halfbacks to run at them.

[the greatest]

so by saying that you'd rather have someone who makes plays rather than someone who sits in the zone waiting for rb to run at them your saying that its the schemes fault for not producing more? Anyway its almost impossible to to compare the two seeing as how the play two diffrent positions. Kind of like saying that deangelo Williams sucks at quartback because he didnt throw more tds than tony romo. Which any logically thinking football fan knows that deangelo Williams doesnt suck because he performs at what he's asked to do exceptionally well just like jon beason and ware perform well at their respective positions. Just a little perspective for everyone. And back on topic yeah I can't wait till we murk the cowgirls on national tv.

[Lone Buc Fan]

This is to save anymore argument on this subject. We'll compare both teams front 7 defenders, as everyone on this forum seems to fall back on the stat column (20 rush TDs from D, 12-4 Record, etc etc.) I'll even break it down position by position. Then people can shut up and read the stats.

Dallas Cowboys Production

MLB

Zach Thomas

94 Tackles, 1 Sack, 0 Forced Fumbles

Bradie James

116 Tackles, 8 Sacks, 3 Forced Fumbles

MLB Evaluation: 210 Tackles, 9 Sacks, 3 Forced Fumbles

OLB

DeMarcus Ware

84 Tackles, 20 Sacks, 6 Forced Fumbles

Greg Ellis

36 Tackles, 8 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

OLB Evaluation: 120 Tackles, 28 Sacks, 6 Forced Fumbles

Defensive Line

Jay Ratliff

51 Tackles, 8 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

Chris Canty

37 Tackles, 3 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

Marcus Spears

35 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 Forced Fumble

Defensive Line Evaluation: 123 Tackles, 12 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble

Overall Front 7 Evaluation: 453 Tackles, 49 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles

Carolina Panthers Production

MLB

Jon Beason

138 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

MLB Evaluation: 138 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

OLB

Thomas Davis

113 Tackles, 4 Sacks, 2 Forced Fumbles

Na'il Diggs

54 Tackles, 1 Sack, 0 Forced Fumbles

OLB Evaluation: 167 Tackles, 5 Sacks, 2 Forced Fumbles

Defensive Line

Maake Kemoeatu

36 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble

Tyler Brayton

40 Tackles, 4 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble

Damione Lewis

43 Tackles, 4 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble

Julius Peppers

51 Tackles, 14 Sacks, 5 Forced Fumbles

Defensive Line Evaluation: 170 Tackles, 22 Sacks, 8 Forced Fumbles

Overall Front 7 Evaluation: 475 Tackles, 27 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles

Team Overall Comparison

Dallas Cowboys

453 Tackles, 49 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles

Carolina Panthers

475 Tackles, 27 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles

There you have it folks, you can use whatever excuse that you want to use or attempt to use. Based off last year's stats (which everyone holds as the determining factor of any debate)...

Carolina leads with 22 Tackles

Cowboys leads with 22 Sacks

Forced Fumbles = Even

Yup, now shut the hell up with this debate... 22 sacks = more then 22 tackles. This was basing both teams starting front 7. Don't wanna hear no more crap, the facts speak for themself.

Dallas's Front 7 > Carolina's Front 7

Keep telling me I'm wrong about things and I'm a idiot, I don't look into facts whatsoever and just randomly make up crap in every post I make. There ya have it, well researched information at your disposal showing Carolina is not anywhere near better then Dallas on comparing the team's front 7s.

[Udogg]

Lone Buc Fan

1. Yes destroyed as they were not close to the same team afterwards.

2. You say its obvious but your comments point otherwise.

3. More consistent the last 2 years as in made the playoffs last year and not this year????

4. No one talks about Carolina because we are not New York or Dallas. I don't see any preseason Buc's winning it all either Sports Center updates.

5. Damn Right.

6. You come to a Carolina Panther message board. Spam predominately negative comments sprinkled with small concessions to not appear to be obvious with your trolling. Then anyone who calls you out or disagrees with your comments are childish? Your even more delusional than us LOL. Oh and what other forum do you post on that doesn't "spaz out" when you diss their team? Name it. Give a link so I can go check it out. Please include your name so I can read your post.

[CardiacCat893490]

I'm being childish when your spazzing out about me saying Ware has more stock then Beason? Yea, that makes great sense. I wasen't comparing Ware to Beason, as I said in the last post (which you seem blind)... Carolina Crazy V2 said "Who had more tackles, Beason or Ware? You lose. HA!".. Yea, implying Beason is worth more then Ware.

Don't bother adding Peppers into this now, why don't you read what I'm typing and go back to his post and see what he said. He didn't directly say Beason was better then Ware but he implied that even though Beason didn't make as much of a impact on the field as Ware.

So, yea... check that and get back to me since your calling me out on this one.

:troll: They see me trollin, they hating...:troll:

[Lone Buc Fan]

Udogg

Carolina and Tampa both knocked the snout out of each other so one argument over another is just a waste of time other then to add some stupid comment to a debate. Both team handed the other team their ass when they had to travel to that team's house. Tampa held up slightly closer as they scored some points compared to the Panthers 3 points in the first game.

2 winning season, no matter if you make the playoffs or not is considered a successful season in the NFL. Its extremely difficult to win back to back seasons, as only 6 teams accomplished this feat (the previous 2 super bowl champions included)

Tampa and Carolina are always the underdog, even after the Bucs dominated the Raiders in the super bowl, they followed that year with no real hype or rep as a super bowl team. With none of us winning a ring since Tampa, we all look like a division of guaranteed teams to fall short in the playoffs at best (least how they portray us and Carolina and Tampa get the least exposure).

I haven't been spamming, if I was spamming it'd be the same thing said over and over... Where I'm offering my side of the view and have still offered some positive remarks toward the Panthers as a Bucs fan. Trolling is when I talk about some football related topic, and someone tries to change the discussion into a personal attack which has held true topic after topic by various people. That right there is trolling, whether you vist the board for years or your a new poster. People have a big misconception here.

People calling someone a idiot, jackass, or dumbass for the hell of it, simply is being childish. Especially if they aren't directly being picked out of a crowd and they decide to whine about anything you say. I post on pewterreport.com but I post on the Insider's message board (doubt you wanna pay money to join and suppourt the Bucs) so it really won't do that good for you. Alot of the guys on that forum bash various Bucs players aside the ones they like. Here, no matter who it is... if they are a Panther... if your not a Panther fan making a negative remark... then you better expect someone to try to drop hell's fury on your ass, even if your speaking out of honesty. Rather then being mature and discussing the topic on hand.

That cover it?

[rko396]

T

Dallas Cowboys Production

MLB

Zach Thomas

94 Tackles, 1 Sack, 0 Forced Fumbles

Bradie James

116 Tackles, 8 Sacks, 3 Forced Fumbles

MLB Evaluation: 210 Tackles, 9 Sacks, 3 Forced Fumbles

OLB

DeMarcus Ware

84 Tackles, 20 Sacks, 6 Forced Fumbles

Greg Ellis

36 Tackles, 8 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

OLB Evaluation: 120 Tackles, 28 Sacks, 6 Forced Fumbles

Defensive Line

Jay Ratliff

51 Tackles, 8 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

Chris Canty

37 Tackles, 3 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

Marcus Spears

35 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 Forced Fumble

Defensive Line Evaluation: 123 Tackles, 12 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble

Overall Front 7 Evaluation: 453 Tackles, 49 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles

Carolina Panthers Production

MLB

Jon Beason

138 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

MLB Evaluation: 138 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Forced Fumbles

OLB

Thomas Davis

113 Tackles, 4 Sacks, 2 Forced Fumbles

Na'il Diggs

54 Tackles, 1 Sack, 0 Forced Fumbles

OLB Evaluation: 167 Tackles, 5 Sacks, 2 Forced Fumbles

Defensive Line

Maake Kemoeatu

36 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble

Tyler Brayton

40 Tackles, 4 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble

Damione Lewis

43 Tackles, 4 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble

Julius Peppers

51 Tackles, 14 Sacks, 5 Forced Fumbles

Defensive Line Evaluation: 170 Tackles, 22 Sacks, 8 Forced Fumbles

Overall Front 7 Evaluation: 475 Tackles, 27 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles

Team Overall Comparison

Dallas Cowboys

453 Tackles, 49 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles

Carolina Panthers

475 Tackles, 27 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles

Dallas's Front 7 > Carolina's Front 7

.

Zach Thoams had 94 tackles? oh wow i thought he only had 80 something. Im sorry, that changes my whole argument. I see that your correct and ill stop acting like I know everything. Is that what your expecting us to say? why the F would you come in here posting stats about Dallas's 3 terrible Linebackers and that DE they call a linebacker (20 sacks isnt hard when ur pass rushing everyplay). What does the total number of tackles by 7 of 11 defensive players prove? does that tell you how many tackles were on key 3rd downs? does it say how many of those tackles were touchdown saving tackles at the 1 yrd line? NO. only one stat means anything at all and thats ur record.

Lets use ur logic:_______Name_____TD PASSES________INT

___________________Pennington______19_____________7

_____________________Thigpen_______18____________12

__________________Roethlisberger_____17____________15

oh ya and cant forget the QB rating:

Roethlisberger______80.7

Shaun Hill__________87.5

clearly judging by stats that u love to use, Roethlisberger is the worst out of those four. i mean come on, more interceptions, less touchdowns, these stats dont lie. Its all about stats right? stats determine everything acording to you

[PhillyB]

Geez this exploded. Actually, while LBF is clearly out of his mind (he is, after all, a bucs fan ) I definitely wouldn't say he's trolling. He's actually presented quite a case full of legitimate arguments and done his best to support them. LBF might be wrong, but ad hominems ad nauseum don't really make for a very good supporting case for the Panthers' side of the debate (or the intelligence of Panthers fans.)

There's eleven pages of stuff on here that I'm not going to sift through, but the last thing I noticed was a comprehensive list of defensive statistics. Stats are nice, but they rarely tell the whole story. You can't just look at a spreadsheet and make a precise calculation based off of it. Stats lie. They are useful, and better than no evidence at all, but hardly count as failproof evidence.

The most debatable one here is running backs - debatable in the sense that LBF is out of his mind on this one. I think the advantage is very, very clear here. That's not to say they'll run for 301 yards (coughcough) against the Dallas D, which is very respectable, but from a comparitave standpoint, carolina's backfield has the clear advantage.

LBF's comments regarding Beason are also correct - it's a fair analysis, not a maligning of our MLB.

Moreover, it has occurred to me that comparing 3-4 and 4-3 defenses in terms of two sections alone - DL and LB - is probably not all that accurate. It's probably best to examine them from the perspective of Front Seven. You could argue that the Cowboys have better linebackers, but then, they also have four linebackers to the standard three in a 4-3 set. Stats are going to be skewed as such.

All that said, the point of the thread wasn't to debate whether or not Carolina can beat Dallas. That, you see, is already a foregone conclusion. :sifone:

The arguement will be half-settled after week one (Bucs vs Dallas) and week three, the MNF game. I look forward to watching both.

[CardiacCat893490]

^After that post I think this thread needs to be locked for now

[Lone Buc Fan]

Zach Thoams had 94 tackles? oh wow i thought he only had 80 something. Im sorry, that changes my whole argument. I see that your correct and ill stop acting like I know everything. Is that what your expecting us to say? why the F would you come in here posting stats about Dallas's 3 terrible Linebackers and that DE they call a linebacker (20 sacks isnt hard when ur pass rushing everyplay). What does the total number of tackles by 7 of 11 defensive players prove? does that tell you how many tackles were on key 3rd downs? does it say how many of those tackles were touchdown saving tackles at the 1 yrd line? NO. only one stat means anything at all and thats ur record.

Lets use ur logic:_______Name_____TD PASSES________INT

___________________Pennington______19_____________ 7

_____________________Thigpen_______18____________1 2

__________________Roethlisberger_____17___________ _15

oh ya and cant forget the QB rating:

Roethlisberger______80.7

Shaun Hill__________87.5

clearly judging by stats that u love to use, Roethlisberger is the worst out of those four. i mean come on, more interceptions, less touchdowns, these stats dont lie. Its all about stats right? stats determine everything acording to you

First off you guys claim Carolina had the better front 7, which is why I showed you that your wrong. Someone said Beason had more tackles then Ware (whoopdee doo, the Cowboys had as many more sacks as you guys had tackles on them)... I'd say Sacks are a way higher value. Yea, 20 sacks isn't hard to do when what 2-3 guys have did it in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE NFL?... Yea, very intelligent statment there rko. Ware > Peppers since your comparing them.

While we are at it, Zach Thomas + Bradie James > Jon Beason for the MLB spot, the rest of the Dallas line (2 guys) dominated your 3 guys since we aren't including Peppers with them as he's being compared to Ware since Ware is just a glorified DE playing the OLB spot. Right? You guys are the ones always boasting about your historic run game and this and that and how your core is better and what not then even Dallas for instance in this topic. And your wrong, and won't admit it... even after its been proven. I already stated your defense hardly did anything to stop anyone all year and you argue and say that the Panthers front 7 is better then the Cowboys (Cowboys had a better secondary aswell)... So I guess Dallas in general had a better defense. Guess we have that covered as all phases of their defense was better then Carolina's defense. You guys are the ones trying to bring up all these stats as the determing factor of why your team is better then any team ever mentioned in any thread in the NFL as Carolina is the top team in the NFL. Case solved, don't bother responding if your going to continue to push illegitamate facts that have nothing to do with the topic on hand. The stats you brought in have nothing to do with who had the better front 7.

Again... the track record showed that Dallas had the better front 7 as a whole, no longer can Carolina be considering as having a better front 7 when you guys beg to differ.

Geez this exploded. Actually, while LBF is clearly out of his mind (he is, after all, a bucs fan ) I definitely wouldn't say he's trolling. He's actually presented quite a case full of legitimate arguments and done his best to support them. LBF might be wrong, but ad hominems ad nauseum don't really make for a very good supporting case for the Panthers' side of the debate (or the intelligence of Panthers fans.)

There's eleven pages of stuff on here that I'm not going to sift through, but the last thing I noticed was a comprehensive list of defensive statistics. Stats are nice, but they rarely tell the whole story. You can't just look at a spreadsheet and make a precise calculation based off of it. Stats lie. They are useful, and better than no evidence at all, but hardly count as failproof evidence.

The most debatable one here is running backs - debatable in the sense that LBF is out of his mind on this one. I think the advantage is very, very clear here. That's not to say they'll run for 301 yards (coughcough) against the Dallas D, which is very respectable, but from a comparitave standpoint, carolina's backfield has the clear advantage.

LBF's comments regarding Beason are also correct - it's a fair analysis, not a maligning of our MLB.

Moreover, it has occurred to me that comparing 3-4 and 4-3 defenses in terms of two sections alone - DL and LB - is probably not all that accurate. It's probably best to examine them from the perspective of Front Seven. You could argue that the Cowboys have better linebackers, but then, they also have four linebackers to the standard three in a 4-3 set. Stats are going to be skewed as such.

All that said, the point of the thread wasn't to debate whether or not Carolina can beat Dallas. That, you see, is already a foregone conclusion.

The arguement will be half-settled after week one (Bucs vs Dallas) and week three, the MNF game. I look forward to watching both.

Yea, I am a psycho xD... nothing wrong with that. I've offered more to suppourt why the Cowboys had a better front 7 then piles of biased opinions as you can't argue with facts too well . The 301 rushing reference to the Giants running for 300+ on you guys btw? lol...

Carolina only has 2 backs to use though, Dallas has 3 quality starting halfbacks... You guys lose one back and bam... that spells for disaster. Where Dallas had 2 starters hurt in Jones and Barber for alot of the year and Choice still played the starter role well. Carolina's 2 guys when healthy are overall more talented, but Dallas's depth makes them hard to push aside aswell as if you both lose 2 backs... they have the edge, even 1 back hurt they have the edge. This is why to me the backfields could be even, maybe Carolina with a bit of the favorable odds but injuries easily change favorable odds. Dallas can take the injury bug a bit better then you guys can.

Also, Carolina had more tackles with less linebackers on the field. Dallas just produced bigger plays with their defense (whether its a 3-4 or 4-3 scheme)... if you argue that, then your saying the 3-4 defense is built to force more turnovers and produce more sacks. Which is false, look at the front 7s as a whole and Dallas won the battle of this debate. Yup and it'll be a new season but we went off what we had to go by... with Dallas having greater results. Coulda mentioned their front 7 being hurt more then Carolina's aswell but the 22 sacks > 22 tackles more... That settles it as far as I see unless someone has something to offer aside a biased Panther view.

[Jangler]

Seriously people stop quoting him and stop responding to him.

[X-Clown]

Yea, and Beason might aswell get use to Ware overshadowing him his whole career while we are at it.

Beason and Ware are both Linebackers and someone before me tried to say Beason was better then Ware...

Foiled again.

[TyHillPanthers]

QB - Cowboys

HB - Even

WR - Panthers

TE - Cowboys

Oline - Cowboys

Dline - Cowboys

LBs - Cowboys

Secondary - Cowboys

Special Teams - Cowboys

At Dallas.. best hope here, prey that the Bucs knock Romo out week 1.

Alright alright.. so you've made some solid points based off 2008 stats which that is always a great fuel for an argument or debate. But id like to at least debate how you think their Oline is better and their RBs are even..well..EVEN with ours?

NOW LETS LOOK AT THE OFFENSE based off those 2008 Stats!..

DALLAS

QB

Tony Romo 276/450 3348 Yds 61.3% Comp 26TD 14INT 91.5 Rating

RB (we'll give cowgirls 3)

Marion Barber 238-885 3.7yds/att 7TDs

Tashard Choice 92-472 5.1yds/att 2TDs

Felix jones 30-266 8.9yds/att 3TDs

RB Evaluation 360-1623 4.5 Yds/att 12TDs

TE

Jason Witten 81-952 11.8yds/rec 4TDs

WR

Terrell Ownes 69-1052 15.2yds/rec 10TDs

Patrick Crayton 39-550 14.1yds/rec 4TDs

WR Evaluation 108-1602 14.8 Yds/rec 14TDs

Oline

Now best way to figure this is how well the RBs performed and I guess lets throw in sacks allowed which would put Dallas having 31 sacks allowed.

Carolina

QB

Jake Delhomme 246-414 3288yds 59.4% Comp 15TDs 12INTs

84.7 Rating

RB

DeAngelo Williams 273 - 1515 5.5 Yds/att 18TDs

Jonathan Stewart 184- 836 4.5yds/att 10TDs

RB Evaluation 457-2351 5.1yds/att 28TDs

TE

Jeff King 21-195 9.3 yds/rec 1TD

Donte Rasario 18-209 11.6 yds/rec 2TDs

TE Evaluation 39-404 10.4yds/rec 3TDs

WR

Steve Smith 78-1421 18.2yds/rec 6TDs

Muhsin Muhammad 65-923 14.2yds/rec 5TDs

WR Evaluation 143- 2344 16.4yds/rec 11TDs

Oline

Again based on RB performance and sacks allowed which in this case Carolina gave up 20.

So breaking it down offensively.

Carolina Rush - 2351 5.1yds/att 28TDs

Dallas Rush- 1623 4.5yds/att 12TDs

CAROLINAS RUNNINGBACKS > DALLAS' RUNNINGBACKS..

Carolina Oline- Avg. 5.1yds/att on the rush allowed 20 sacks

Dallas' Oline Avg 4.5yds/att on the rush, allowed 31 sacks

Carolinas Oline > Dallas' Oline

There you have it..no argument can be made based of 2008 stats.

I didnt go into much detail of the others cause I have no arguement with the WR nor the TE..the only other argument could be made is Delhomme compared to Romo..both had pretty much equal % along with a fairly close rating perc. Romo threw couple more INTs...

I didnt read through all this bullshit of the bickering but I did happen to see where you mentioned Delhomme blowing the game for us..that is true, but didnt Romo do a bigger job of blowing a game on a mishandle? also, him not ever winning a playoff game. I would personally give the QB to carolina in this situation based off stats and past experience in close games or playoffs games.

So couple switches I would like to make for you would be

QB=Carolina

HBs=Carolina

Oline=Carolina

So now, that being said with Dallas' "Great front 7" vs Carolinas more potent offense, I would say its a bit more close than us just "hoping your precious bucs knock Romo out" now wouldnt it?

P.S. Any argument about injuries people can blow it out their ass thats apart of football.

I personally think it will be a very good game but based on how Carolina plays under pressure and the weapons they do have offensively id give it to Carolina to win this game in week 3.

. Debate away...

[Lone Buc Fan]

I was debating the front 7 on this debate and said don't bother responding unless you have something to add to the current debate. I have no interest in comparing more then the topic I was trying to prove my point on