With all the talk about Cam "moping"

[foxtrot]

Not facts.

http://www.nfl.com/player/timtebow/497135/profile

13 fumbles, 6 lost. He lost a fumble in his last 5 straight games to finish the reg season

And again, The Golden Calf of Bristol imploding for 3 quarters putting a bigger strain on his D going 3 and out and having the offense do NOTHING......isn't him aiding the team.

Cam did more....bc he had to. The Golden Calf of Bristol could do very little in terms of moving the offense except for 1 quarter bc his D and ST were significantly better. This isn't a team comparison....it is an individual one. Cam moved his offense all year......was at the top of the league in 80+ yard TD drives, redzone TD efficiency, converting more first downs than any RB in the NFL, etc....those things matter when looking at what a player does to help his team. The Golden Calf of Bristol's team simply did significantly more to help him win.

I guess ESPN only keeps track of rushing lost fumbles. Good to know. I think the remaining of your post is a matter of opinion. I doubt there is anyone else in the NFL that would agree the Broncos have a better personnel or offense than the Panthers. Not even close. Just in dropped passes alone they are 32nd in the league. Not exactly the type of "help" you can argue made a difference for The Golden Calf of Bristol.

[BigSyke]

The Golden Calf of Bristol does less so he has a higher probablity to make less mistakes. he plays kiddy safe backyard ball. lol

last i heard, tim and cam had around the same amount of carries........................ cam had more yards,more touchdowns and........ less fumbles. lol cam has the build of eric dickerson as a runner(no cam is not good as eric just to clear things up!!).

we already know newton passed way more than tim, so their numbers are not even comparable. only idiots or biased people would try to compare them to make The Golden Calf of Bristol look better. thats how you know newton is better, because they have to exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxagerate what he does. then try to be slick with numbers, but you cant fool me buddy with all your superficial math.

then they ignore the fact that newton has not had a defense(or a kicker) and say he should be able win without one like brady, but he is not ELITE yet(yeah i dont overate him like you do The Golden Calf of Bristol). and even brady has never won without a defense, so stop being biased against newton just because you thought he would be a bust. matt moore played decent this year but he AINT(lol) NO FUTURE SUPERSTAR LIKE CAM. dolphins are looking for a qb........ the last time i checked the panthers are not.

God- please stop arguing with idiots(biased fans) bigsyke, they will never learn!!! The Golden Calf of Bristol is not the SECOND coming......EXCEPT when it comes to Cam Newton.

me: WHOA you really do exist, judging by christians in America you would never know.

lol(just playing guys)

[panthers55]

Facts please not opinion.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/den/denver-broncos

This says he has 6 fumbles and 2 lost. Where are you getting your numbers from?

And I was only responding to the calculations the orginal poster made.

If you're going to look at td% and int % then that's simply the two ratios between the two categories combined. Yards and completion % indicate work and effort. It's all great, but lets not act like Cam Newton didn't benefit tremendously by being allowed to run a lot of those TD's in at the goal line. In the end though, points are the results. Points, interceptions and turnovers directly impact the chances of winning a football game. A completed pass, completion %, a good yard average doesn't. Touchdowns and interceptions do. That's what matters in the end. Completion % and yardage is your contribution to effort.

You don't get extra credit for needing 3 drives, 200 yards and 12 completions to score a touchdown except in yards section of record books, not when it comes to winning. You don't get more credit for putting in more effort for the same result. Good for you, but in the end you just worked harder than the guy that got the same result. Nobody cares about it, if in the end you make more mistakes to cost your team a win.

Results speak for themselves.

The official stat source for the NFl is NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/player/timtebow/497135/profile

He clearly had 13 fumbles and lost 6. Bottom line is he had 5 fumbles and lost 3 in the last 3 games.

If you want to look at wins and losses or fourth quarter comebacks or game winning drives, etc you can make a very good case for The Golden Calf of Bristol. But from a production point of view the numbers favor Newton.

The only stats that matter are points for versus points against. The Golden Calf of Bristol's offense averaged 19 points a game good for 25th place. Newton's averaged over 25 points a game good for 6th place. The defense keep Denver in the game so The Golden Calf of Bristol could have him last minute heroics with turnovers.

What you need to consider if you want to be taken seriously are quality stats not quantity stats. For example The Golden Calf of Bristol ran the ball 122 times. He scored 6 TDs, fumbled 13 times and lost it 6 times. So he scored a TD roughly every 20 carries, fumbled every 10 carries and turned over the ball every 20 touches.

By comparison Newton ran the ball 127 times. He scored 14 TDs, fumbled 5 and lost 2. So by comparison he scored a TD every 9 touches, fumbled every 25 carries and lost one every 60 carries.

Now look at passing. The Golden Calf of Bristol threw the ball 271 times. He completed 126 or 45% for 6 yards an attempt. He scored 12 TDs and 6 Ints with 33 sacks. So he had a TD every 23 attempts, an Int every 45 attempts and a sack every 8 attempts.

By comparison Newton threw the ball 517 times. He had 21 TDs, 17 Ints, and 35 sacks. So he completed 60% of his passes for 7.8 yards per attempt, had a TD every 24 attempts, an Int every 30 attempts and a sack every 15 attempts.

Combined The Golden Calf of Bristol touched the ball 393 times and had 16 TDs or a TD every 22 touches, and a turnover every 32 touches.

Combined Newton touched the ball 644 times. He had a touchdown every 18 touches and a turnover every 34 touches.

What do you think we find if we delve even deeper and look at 1st downs as a percentage of attempts, 20 yard+ passes,etc. Yeah they all favor Newton. That says a lot since he essentially attempted twice as many passes he had to have more than twice the number to have better stats and he did.

As a function of touches The Golden Calf of Bristol made more mistakes, had more sacks (drive killers), made far fewer 1st downs (drive extenders) and was less productive. Tebows offense was less productive and scored fewer points.

It is amazing what you find when you actually look at the facts and compare apples to apples.

[foxtrot]

I think Cam Newton comes out looking very good in the numbers you are posting because you compare total production stats from his full season numbers(16 games) to 11 games for Tim who wasn't a day 1 starter and two different offenses with two different personnel. The regular season efficiency numbers for Tim looked very different prior to his final 3 game skid. When 60% of his total interceptions came in those 3 games, I'm not sure how much it says about The Golden Calf of Bristol's full season. Tim only had 2 picks in his first 8 games and then ended the final 3 games on a down note.

So had he had a full 16 game we'll never know how he's full numbers would have ended up because when having such few attempts his efficiency numbers are going to be very much affected by a couple of games which just so happen to come at the end of his regular season. Next year will be a far more telling story unless Denver makes it to the Super Bowl and you have a similar number of games.

In addition to that you have very different style offenses with very different personnel. I can understand looking at Brady vs Brees vs Rodgers vs Cam vs Vick but at least in 2011 Denver's offense and personnel compared to Newton's offense in personnel are very different. Just the yards after catch alone for Carolina versus Denver is a significant difference. Let alone the fact they lead the league in dropped passes. Carolina operates and are built much more closely to teams like the Patriots, Eagles, Green Bay and the Saints. Denver's #1 receiver all season long, Erick Decker, makes Legedu Naanee look great. In fact the reason they may have done so good is because he got hurt and Thomas stepped up as the new #1.

What you saw this past weekend is that when The Golden Calf of Bristol's receivers actually catch the ball and can get him the type of yards after catch other receivers get their quarterbacks, he has no problems "throwing" for 300+, even off of only 10 completions and 21 attempts, just like any other top quarterback in this league. Usually you need about 30 to get 300 though so I don't expect that again.

[panthers55]

I think Cam Newton comes out looking very good in the numbers you are posting because you compare total production stats from his full season numbers(16 games) to 11 games for Tim who wasn't a day 1 starter and two different offenses with two different personnel. The regular season efficiency numbers for Tim looked very different prior to his final 3 game skid. When 60% of his total interceptions came in those 3 games, I'm not sure how much it says about The Golden Calf of Bristol's full season. Tim only had 2 picks in his first 8 games and then ended the final 3 games on a down note.

So had he had a full 16 game we'll never know how he's full numbers would have ended up because when having such few attempts his efficiency numbers are going to be very much affected by a couple of games which just so happen to come at the end of his regular season. Next year will be a far more telling story unless Denver makes it to the Super Bowl and you have a similar number of games.

In addition to that you have very different style offenses with very different personnel. I can understand looking at Brady vs Brees vs Rodgers vs Cam vs Vick but at least in 2011 Denver's offense and personnel compared to Newton's offense in personnel are very different. Just the yards after catch alone for Carolina versus Denver is a significant difference. Let alone the fact they lead the league in dropped passes. Carolina operates and are built much more closely to teams like the Patriots, Eagles, Green Bay and the Saints. Denver's #1 receiver all season long, Erick Decker, makes Legedu Naanee look great. In fact the reason they may have done so good is because he got hurt and Thomas stepped up as the new #1.

What you saw this past weekend is that when The Golden Calf of Bristol's receivers actually catch the ball and can get him the type of yards after catch other receivers get their quarterbacks, he has no problems "throwing" for 300+, even off of only 10 completions and 21 attempts, just like any other top quarterback in this league. Usually you need about 30 to get 300 though so I don't expect that again.

You asked for facts not opinions. When I gave you facts now you give speculation and opinion.

Funny stuff there...........

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

Actually Saltman, I feel this is a pretty perfect last thread, and no better way to make this the last post I ever make on here and hopefully the more sensible Panthers fans will figure it out for themselves they are really are wasting their time posting on this forum. Good luck! Keep up the good work.

I won't be back.

so glad that you're back to wasting your time on this board PFFL.

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

TRD this guy is derailing your Cam thread by talking about The Golden Calf of Bristol. What a jerk, am I right?

[CatMan72]

TRD, it would also be interesting to perform this analysis of Peyton Manning in his rookie season and see how the numbers compare?

[CRA]

I guess ESPN only keeps track of rushing lost fumbles. Good to know. I think the remaining of your post is a matter of opinion. I doubt there is anyone else in the NFL that would agree the Broncos have a better personnel or offense than the Panthers. Not even close. Just in dropped passes alone they are 32nd in the league. Not exactly the type of "help" you can argue made a difference for The Golden Calf of Bristol.

It is not a matter of opinion that if you do nothing for the majority of a game an put it on your defense.....then as an individual that is not helping your team. It is also not opinion the Broncos D and ST did significantlypre to help him win games than Carolina's.

Also, if you are going to ramble on and on about The Golden Calf of Bristol then you should of watched him play.....the fact you were trying to pimp that fraud fumble total is proof you weren't watching his overall slop....bc he fumbled a lot

[YoungPanthers89]

Oh yay pffl is back

[teeray]

I think Cam Newton comes out looking very good in the numbers you are posting because you compare total production stats from his full season numbers(16 games) to 11 games for Tim who wasn't a day 1 starter and two different offenses with two different personnel. The regular season efficiency numbers for Tim looked very different prior to his final 3 game skid. When 60% of his total interceptions came in those 3 games, I'm not sure how much it says about The Golden Calf of Bristol's full season. Tim only had 2 picks in his first 8 games and then ended the final 3 games on a down note.

So had he had a full 16 game we'll never know how he's full numbers would have ended up because when having such few attempts his efficiency numbers are going to be very much affected by a couple of games which just so happen to come at the end of his regular season. Next year will be a far more telling story unless Denver makes it to the Super Bowl and you have a similar number of games.

In addition to that you have very different style offenses with very different personnel. I can understand looking at Brady vs Brees vs Rodgers vs Cam vs Vick but at least in 2011 Denver's offense and personnel compared to Newton's offense in personnel are very different. Just the yards after catch alone for Carolina versus Denver is a significant difference. Let alone the fact they lead the league in dropped passes. Carolina operates and are built much more closely to teams like the Patriots, Eagles, Green Bay and the Saints. Denver's #1 receiver all season long, Erick Decker, makes Legedu Naanee look great. In fact the reason they may have done so good is because he got hurt and Thomas stepped up as the new #1.

What you saw this past weekend is that when The Golden Calf of Bristol's receivers actually catch the ball and can get him the type of yards after catch other receivers get their quarterbacks, he has no problems "throwing" for 300+, even off of only 10 completions and 21 attempts, just like any other top quarterback in this league. Usually you need about 30 to get 300 though so I don't expect that again.

It is amazing how a QB that can actually throw the ball effects thing like YAC yardage.

Last year Steve Smith had only 221 Yards After the Catch and this year he had 474 YAC. Did he just become a better receiver or did he actually have a QB that could throw the ball to him in stride??

Fact is when you have to adjust to the majority of the balls thrown you aren't going to have a lot of YAC.

[tiger7_88]

I think Cam Newton comes out looking very good in the numbers you are posting because you compare total production stats from his full season numbers(16 games) to 11 games for Tim who wasn't a day 1 starter and two different offenses with two different personnel. The regular season efficiency numbers for Tim looked very different prior to his final 3 game skid. When 60% of his total interceptions came in those 3 games, I'm not sure how much it says about The Golden Calf of Bristol's full season. Tim only had 2 picks in his first 8 games and then ended the final 3 games on a down note.

Dear PFFL: 60% of Cam's interceptions (well, actually 59%) came in only 3 games as well.

[TheRealDeal]

TRD this guy is derailing your Cam thread by talking about The Golden Calf of Bristol. What a jerk, am I right?

CatMan was the first one to derail the thread I believe. I just want to create discussion about our football team and our young star, I know it's hard in the offseason.

TRD, it would also be interesting to perform this analysis of Peyton Manning in his rookie season and see how the numbers compare?

It would be very interesting, but considering that Cam one took me about 4 days to find time to do it and I'm in the middle of closing out my fiscal quarter and getting forecasts done for my fiscal year and the next 3 fiscal years, time is scarce.

I'd love to do it as well. My preliminary one of MM shows he has a decline as well, but only about 20 QB rating points instead of 30 and his TD/Int ratio after picks is 1:1 while Cam's is 1:2 and I would hardly call MM seasoned or the benchmark we want to compare the franchise to.

[King Taharqa]

ZA few things to remember...

1) Despite his claims, the OP is NOT a Panther fan. At no point during the season did he celebrate our wins or progression as a franchise. He did revel in our losses and posted more frequently those weeks. The OP triumphed and posted more about Broncos, Bengals, Dolphins wins.

2) OP is racially biased towards white QBs. He refuses to microanalyze them and hold them accountable the way he has black QBs. Hes not equipped to give a non biased view of their performance.

3) OP is a liar and has 0 integrity (ex: being a Panther fan when his only purpose here is to undermine a black QB)