Cam vs Tim

[teeray]

Scoring offense. SCORING. You still have no clue what that means and how it's different from our actual offense.

You still don't understand that an offense can be inefficient, but your scoring offense, thanks to defense and special teams, can be efficient.

Check and mate. This is what I have been saying from day 1 of this stupid argument.

I agree. OYPP is different from your actual offense.

I agree. Defense and special teams can can make an inefficient offense appear efficient. They can also make a pretty efficient offense appear inefficient when compared to other teams that have better defenses and special teams. In our case that would be 95% of the league that has better defenses or special teams.

This has been my argument from day 1. Glad you have finally figured this out.

And again. Our defense is ranked 17th in starting defending position. Our offense is one of the best at avoiding three and outs. So those arguments have zero merit.

And when your offense receives none of the benefits that most other teams do from the defense it will hurt OYPP when compared to the rest of the league.

You are finally getting it. :hurray:

[teeray]

And I don't go out of my way to protect our offense. I just base my conclusions in reality and statistics.

I have said 1,000 times neither Cam nor the offense is perfect. But they have done more than enough to win a lot more than 4 games and shouldn't have to be perfect in order to have a chance to win.

Again this offense compares favorably to the 2003 team that played in the Super Bowl but instead we are 4-9.

[Showtime]

alright you say your scoring offense does not mean you have to be an efficient offense overall because you are put in good postions by the defense and special teams. ISNT THAT HOW The Golden Calf of Bristol WINS!!!

all of the potenial playoff teams score as many points panthers do a game. around 24 and 25 points!!!!

so do we have a bad overall offense or bad scoring offense????

I couldn't tell you without a shadow of a doubt because I don't watch their games on a regular basis. What I do know is that they have an efficient scoring offense and most of that gets affected by turnovers.

Denver's ranked 13th. We're ranked 24th as a team. As players it's even worse. The Golden Calf of Bristol's thrown 2 pics in the past 6 games. That's all but he also throws a lot less per game. In general our team, does a good job of protecting the football outside of Cam. The rest of our players help out a lot, by not being as sloppy as Cam with the ball, which takes a lot of heat off our offense. But fumbles and interceptions aren't the primary enemy when it comes to the Panthers. It's turnovers in general. Mainly not scoring. Turning over the ball on downs, 3 and outs, failed attempts, etc.

As far as The Golden Calf of Bristol all I really know is he's not turning it over as much as Cam. And because of that, that can have a better effect overall on your chances of winning than all the yards Cam Newton can get us. Because with each drive we march down field and we don't score, and turn it over on downs, that's one extra drive the other offense gets a chance to score. You're better off chewing the clock all game long, because in that case neither you nor or your opponent gets to score a whole lot.

So I have no idea how good a player The Golden Calf of Bristol is as far as passing throughout the game but by the numbers he looks pretty pooty and not as good as Cam. As a game manager, the numbers say he's better. As a leader he's better. As a fourth quarter game manager, he's definitely better. No contest.

The Golden Calf of Bristol's like Delhomme, except worse so far in his career. Not the greatest passer, and that's un understatement, but a really good leader who didn't seem to get rattled often late in the game. While everyone else got the jitters, Delhomme would continue sticking his tongue out and play about the same. Not really any better, but just didn't get worse. So it by default, made him better compared to how he played the rest of the game, because the majority of players get affected more.

Guys like Delhomme, Smith, The Golden Calf of Bristol....they're not bothered by the pressure as much. Can't say the same about Kasay for example. He was good in the regular season, but started choking in the playoffs against both the Rams and the Super Bowl...obviously. Didn't just miss a FG but a damn kick-off.

They have their own way of dealing with it. God, Smith(someone should ask him), tongue. Maybe the key is sticking your tongue out. I have no idea.

[im_ right+your_ wrong]

whoa that does make sense teeray, panthers defense and special teams have been bad all year long, and was not helping the team out. i watch you guys argue all the time, its never ending. HA!

[Showtime]

And I don't go out of my way to protect our offense. I just base my conclusions in reality and statistics.

I have said 1,000 times neither Cam nor the offense is perfect. But they have done more than enough to win a lot more than 4 games and shouldn't have to be perfect in order to have a chance to win.

Again this offense compares favorably to the 2003 team that played in the Super Bowl but instead we are 4-9.

That's where you are wrong. They would have done more than enough to win IF they also didn't shoot themselves in the foot to wipe all the good poo they did.

That's the big IF.

It makes no difference if you get 400 yards if you can only score 23 points.

You're actually not helping at all you're hurting. In order for you to get so many yards with so few points, it means you turned over the damn ball and didn't score. At the same time, it means the other team also got a free chance to score against our defense.

So thanks for your help, but if you don't score, your yards are meaningless. Basically. Thanks for the points but if you turn over the ball in our own end-zone you also gave the other team free points.

You giveth and you taketh away. What you do that hurts us, has more effect on us losing, than all the good things you do that would otherwise help us win. So clean up the mistakes, and you'll actually be productive when it comes to helping the team win.

[im_ right+your_ wrong]

I couldn't tell you without a shadow of a doubt because I don't watch their games on a regular basis. What I do know is that they have an efficient scoring offense and most of that gets affected by turnovers.

Denver's ranked 13th. We're ranked 24th as a team. As players it's even worse. The Golden Calf of Bristol's thrown 2 pics in the past 6 games. That's all but he also throws a lot less per game. In general our team, does a good job of protecting the football outside of Cam. The rest of our players help out a lot, by not being as sloppy as Cam with the ball, which takes a lot of heat off our offense. But fumbles and interceptions aren't the primary enemy when it comes to the Panthers. It's turnovers in general. Mainly not scoring. Turning over the ball on downs, 3 and outs, failed attempts, etc.

As far as The Golden Calf of Bristol all I really know is he's not turning it over as much as Cam. And because of that, that can have a better effect overall on your chances of winning than all the yards Cam Newton can get us. Because with each drive we march down field and we don't score, and turn it over on downs, that's one extra drive the other offense gets a chance to score. You're better off chewing the clock all game long, because in that case neither you nor or your opponent gets to score a whole lot.

So I have no idea how good a player The Golden Calf of Bristol is as far as passing throughout the game but by the numbers he looks pretty pooty and not as good as Cam. As a game manager, the numbers say he's better. As a leader he's better. As a fourth quarter game manager, he's definitely better. No contest.

The Golden Calf of Bristol's like Delhomme, except worse so far in his career. Not the greatest passer, and that's un understatement, but a really good leader who didn't seem to get rattled often late in the game. While everyone else got the jitters, Delhomme would continue sticking his tongue out and play about the same. Not really any better, but just didn't get worse. So it by default, made him better compared to how he played the rest of the game, because the majority of players get affected more.

Guys like Delhomme, Smith, The Golden Calf of Bristol....they're not bothered by the pressure as much. Can't say the same about Kasay for example. He was good in the regular season, but started choking in the playoffs against both the Rams and the Super Bowl...obviously. Didn't just miss a FG but a damn kick-off.

They have their own way of dealing with it. God, Smith(someone should ask him), tongue. Maybe the key is sticking your tongue out. I have no idea.

if The Golden Calf of Bristol threw as many as times as cam he would have way more ints, they protect him and give him a gameplan suited to his strenghts. which is a strong running game and designed runs. The Golden Calf of Bristol is good guy and im a big fan, but the guy is doing the same thing that MANY other avg qbs have did in the past, some like trent won a superbowl, they all have in common is that it never last outside of 1 to 2 years. you have to become a better passer like steve young did or the nfl will gameplan for you and stop you.

THINKL ABOUT IT SHOWTIME. The Golden Calf of Bristol IS BARLEY WINNING NOW, so what is going to happen when those defense have tape on him???

[im_ right+your_ wrong]

That's where you are wrong. They would have done more than enough to win IF they also didn't shoot themselves in the foot to wipe all the good poo they did.

That's the big IF.

It makes no difference if you get 400 yards if you can only score 23 points.

You're actually not helping at all you're hurting. In order for you to get so many yards with so few points, it means you turned over the damn ball and didn't score. At the same time, it means the other team also got a free chance to score against our defense.

So thanks for your help, but if you don't score, your yards are meaningless. Basically. Thanks for the points but if you turn over the ball in our own end-zone you also gave the other team free points.

You giveth and you taketh away. What you do that hurts us, has more effect on us losing, than all the good things you do that would otherwise help us win. So clean up the mistakes, and you'll actually be productive when it comes to helping the team win.

on a avg panthers score the same as other teams that are winning but the panthers are losing!!!!! why is that??????

[Showtime]

if The Golden Calf of Bristol threw as many as times as cam he would have way more ints, they protect him and give him a gameplan suited to his strenghts. which is a strong running game and designed runs. The Golden Calf of Bristol is good guy and im a big fan, but the guy is doing the same thing that MANY other avg qbs have did in the past, some like trent won a superbowl, they all have in common is that it never last outside of 1 to 2 years. you have to become a better passer like steve young did or the nfl will gameplan for you and stop you.

THINKL ABOUT IT SHOWTIME. The Golden Calf of Bristol IS BARLEY WINNING NOW, so what is going to happen when those defense have tape on him???

You might be right. Again, I already stated Cam appears to be a better passer by the numbers. My argument isn't The Golden Calf of Bristol/Cam. It's our offense, Cam, our defense, and what we have to do to win! I like Fox. The Golden Calf of Bristol's a nice story. It would be a much better story for me if it was Cam Newton in the playoffs and the Panthers(as long as his supporters went away).

But as it stands The Golden Calf of Bristol doesn't throw more picks. And he's also not having to throw because he doesn't turn over the ball much in the first place. He helps his own shortcomings and so does Fox by playing to his strengths. They are in control of the game. They dictate the timing. They dictate the points scored. They dictate if it's going to be a shoot out or not.

We believe a 60% passer can throw as many times as Brady or Brees and still win, when those guys are averaging 70%. In the NFL that's a huge difference and that's likely why Fox didn't let Jake sling it. He coaches to his players strengths. Now is that mostly a decision from our OC or does that have to do with the fact we're trying to catch up, forcing ourselves to pass?

[Showtime]

Double post.

[Showtime]

on a avg panthers score the same as other teams that are winning but the panthers are losing!!!!! why is that??????

EFFICIENCY!

Points scored means poo if you are not efficient. It's what I keep trying to pound in some heads. The answer isn't defense. It's efficiency!

That's the difference.

That's why New England can win with a "bad" defense that's worse than ours. That's why Green Bay can.

Their offenses are efficient so their defenses allow less points. Ours isn't. But their defense is no better in yards, no better in the red-zone. Their defenses are no better than ours in any freaking category except points allowed. There is no other explanation for this. They "suck" just as bad or worse than our defense. Yet their defense allows less points, offense scores more, and their team wins? Why? Efficiency. QB's. A better offense.

PS: And that has everything to do with the fact that what you think of as a "defensive category" isn't a defensive stat in the first place. It's not in essence. Total yards allowed. It's a poor measurement of your defense. Just as meaningless as total yards gained. Points allowed. Completely effected by the offense(think FG's and turnovers...nothing a defense can do in general to stop a FG or a turnover from becoming at least 3 points that took place within scoring range. Blocking one is like a miracle in the NFL. Maybe "Superman" can. He should show our defensive players how to play "up" to his level).

[teeray]

EFFICIENCY!

Points scored means poo if you are not efficient. It's what I keep trying to pound in some heads. The answer isn't defense. It's efficiency!

That's the difference.

That's why New England can win with a "bad" defense that's worse than ours. That's why Green Bay can.

Their offenses are efficient so their defenses allow less points. Ours isn't. But their defense is no better in yards, no better in the red-zone. Their defenses are no better than ours in any freaking category except points allowed. There is no other explanation for this. They "suck" just as bad or worse than our defense. Yet their defense allows less points, offense scores more, and their team wins? Why? Efficiency. QB's. A better offense.

PS: And that has everything to do with the fact that what you think of as a "defensive category" isn't a defensive stat in the first place. It's not in essence. Total yards allowed. It's a poor measurement of your defense. Just as meaningless as total yards gained. Points allowed. Completely effected by the offense(think FG's and turnovers...nothing a defense can do in general to stop a FG or a turnover from becoming at least 3 points that took place within scoring range. Blocking one is like a miracle in the NFL. Maybe "Superman" can. He should show our defensive players how to play "up" to his level).

Basically you are saying that our defense is so bad only Tom Brady could be successful with it. Sorry, Cam isn't on Tom Brady's level yet. As a matter of fact it took Tom Brady 5 seasons as a starter before he was on Tom Brady's level. So lets see where Cam is 5 years from now.

[im_ right+your_ wrong]

EFFICIENCY!

Points scored means poo if you are not efficient. It's what I keep trying to pound in some heads. The answer isn't defense. It's efficiency!

That's the difference.

That's why New England can win with a "bad" defense that's worse than ours. That's why Green Bay can.

Their offenses are efficient so their defenses allow less points. Ours isn't. But their defense is no better in yards, no better in the red-zone. Their defenses are no better than ours in any freaking category except points allowed. There is no other explanation for this. They "suck" just as bad or worse than our defense. Yet their defense allows less points, offense scores more, and their team wins? Why? Efficiency. QB's. A better offense.

PS: And that has everything to do with the fact that what you think of as a "defensive category" isn't a defensive stat in the first place. It's not in essence. Total yards allowed. It's a poor measurement of your defense. Just as meaningless as total yards gained. Points allowed. Completely effected by the offense(think FG's and turnovers...nothing a defense can do in general to stop a FG or a turnover from becoming at least 3 points that took place within scoring range. Blocking one is like a miracle in the NFL. Maybe "Superman" can. He should show our defensive players how to play "up" to his level).

so you say he has to play like brady to do it, but what has brady won, interms of superbowls, without those top 10 defense from the early 2000's?

[Showtime]

so you say he has to play like brady to do it, but what has brady won, interms of superbowls, without those top 10 defense from the early 2000's?

No. I'm saying he should stop playing like Vick and worse than Romo. There is a middle ground, believe it or not. There's a whole bunch of levels in between where Cam is and where guys like Brady and Brees are.

He's not even yet consistently good. Let alone great. Let alone elite. Get consistently good. Do the basics. Protect the ball. Throw it away when you need to. Finish games. You know, basic QB play for the full 60 minutes. I don't need him to complete 70%. I do want him to do better than 4 incompletes in a row on 1st and 5 at the 27th yard line resulting in a turnover.

That's not even average. That's just plain bad. And it's happened far too many times this year late in the game. Inconsistent and it creeps up in the worst of moments.

[im_ right+your_ wrong]

No. I'm saying he should stop playing like Vick and worse than Romo. There is a middle ground, believe it or not. There's a whole bunch of levels in between where Cam is and where guys like Brady and Brees are.

He's not even yet consistently good. Let alone great. Let alone elite. Get consistently good. Do the basics. Protect the ball. Throw it away when you need to. Finish games. You know, basic QB play for the full 60 minutes. I don't need him to complete 70%. I do want him to do better than 4 incompletes in a row on 1st and 5 at the 27th yard line resulting in a turnover.

That's not even average. That's just plain bad. And it's happened far too many times this year late in the game. Inconsistent and it creeps up in the worst of moments.

yeah i agree cam has been up and down during the game. when he plays good the whole game like vs the redskins, they fare better. he always peak early then starts amking mistake in the for some reason. but the playcalling gets bad to in the 4th too for some reason. dw was on fire and you dont give the ball to him not one time on 1st and 5??? and screen plays had worked good to, i just dont understand it.