Cam vs Tim

[Showtime]

Lol, still on my first account...But it doesn't prove poo if you can still lose with better YPP...so you waste your entire life posting about on account after account...YOU CAN STILL LOSE WITH BETTER YPP SO IT DOESN'T PROVE poo FOR WHOS A WINNER OR LOSER....

Dude it proves that it makes for better football discussions than talking about yards all day long our how bad our defense sucks when it actually never comes close to pin-pointing what's wrong with us and why we are losing. It helps put the blame where it actually belongs.

It proves you are wasting your time talking yards and defense all day long, and have been all year, when in fact, without an efficient offense, WE CAN'T GET ANYWHERE! You have been wasting your time as a football fan discussing pointless stats and figures for years! All of these talks were for nothing. All of this time you took to look poo up, in reality had little to do with whether it would actually do anything for this team's winning record, in the long run. All of these draft talks. All of these player assessments. None of that matters, because if the problem is your efficiency and execution, none of the "typical talk" or "complaints" can actually fix it.

If you have an efficient offense, doing what they are supposed to do, and you still can't muster up a winning record, then you can worry about all that other stuff.

In other words you have been totally ignorant to what matters in football and what contributes most to winning.

[Showtime]

if this were all true, you would expect a high correlation between ypp and dypp. unfortunately there is virtually no correlation between ypp and dypp... R² = 0.10 for those of you keeping track at home.

amusingly enough, some of the least efficient offenses have some of the most efficient defenses. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Jacksonville are all top 10 in dypp but bottom 10 in ypp... there just isn't a correlation here... offense and defense are linked, but it isn't shown by correlation between these two stats.

Dude defensive yards per point is your opponent's combined efficiency!

They literally take your opponent's offensive efficiency and add them up.

It basically tells you where turnovers are taking place by your offense. There's only one way for a defense to have an inefficient yards per point allowed: Your offense has to turn over the ball or special teams defense give up big plays. In other words: bad defending field position.

You can have a more efficient defense by stopping an opponent. But you can only have an inefficient number on the defensive side, if your offense turns over the ball in a bad spot or special teams can't stop them until they get to midfield or past the average starting field position of ~25 yards.

There's no way for a defensive yards per point allowed number to be inefficient, or less than average, without an offense doing something to screw them over. It's impossible. Mathematically. It just doesn't happen.

So what does this mean? Our offense isn't just inefficient in scoring points. It's also turning over the ball in bad spots or getting a lot of 3 and outs which puts the defense in a bad spot. It's not like Brady or the Patriots, which rarely turn it over in their own half or rarely get a 3 and out. We do it religiously. Shoot ourselves in the foot and our defense in the head.

We're worse than other inefficient offenses. We're probably the worst in the league. Worse than Indy. At least they can't freaking get going. We do but we stab ourselves in the back repeatedly. They're incapable. We're incompetent. "Plain and simple."

[mav1234]

dude, what you're saying is that your offense's ypp determines your dypp, but it isn't even strongly correlated at all, and it certainly would be if you were right. on top of that, you're flat out wrong about "the only way to have an inefficient defense is to have an inefficient offense." let me give you a really simple example.

let's assume your offense scores on every single possession. let's say you have a great kickoff team and every single opponent's drive starts at the 20. Now let's say that every time they have the ball, they march down the field for 80 yards and score a TD. Your offense had nothing to do with that DYPP, yet I would say that a 11.4 DYPP for a defense is extremely inefficient :P That's obviously an unrealistic DYPP, but the point remains: even if your offense plays well, your defense can have a terrible DYPP all on it's own.

They literally take your opponent's offensive efficiency and add them up.

no, they don't... they take the number of yards your opponents have had and divide it by the points you've given up... hence why for us, we've given up 355 points and 4750 yards and have a DYPP of ~13.4

[chef17]

I love how stats that begin with defensive aren't actually defensive stats at all. Whoever named them must be some kind of dumbass

[mav1234]

we don't actually have a defense, you see... we just put 11 Cam Newtons out there. How else do you explain how they fail to win games in the 4th for us?!?!?!?!

[Showtime]

dude, what you're saying is that your offense's ypp determines your dypp, but it isn't even strongly correlated at all, and it certainly would be if you were right. on top of that, you're flat out wrong about "the only way to have an inefficient defense is to have an inefficient offense." let me give you a really simple example.

let's assume your offense scores on every single possession. let's say you have a great kickoff team and every single opponent's drive starts at the 20. Now let's say that every time they have the ball, they march down the field for 80 yards and score a TD. Your offense had nothing to do with that DYPP, yet I would say that a 11.4 DYPP for a defense is extremely inefficient :P That's obviously an unrealistic DYPP, but the point remains: even if your offense plays well, your defense can have a terrible DYPP all on it's own.

no, they don't... they take the number of yards your opponents have had and divide it by the points you've given up... hence why for us, we've given up 355 points and 4750 yards and have a DYPP of ~13.4

Not only does it strongly correlate, but your offense and special teams defense is the only thing that can make it less than efficient. You are right that an offense has little to do with making them more efficient. Only the defense can. But an offense has EVERYTHING to do with making them less efficient. Defense has no control over how inefficient an offense will be, which directly impacts their starting defending field position, they will just have to deal with it and make up for it. They can only try to stop an opponent which will make them more efficient. But they don't get to pick the starting point. They're not on the field after we throw a pick, and they're also not on the field after a kick-off or punt. Offense and special teams defense are. That's who decides how tough a job our defense will have.

As for the rest of it.

Carolina's defensive yards allowed efficiency against Atlanta: 12.7

Atanta's offensive yards allowed efficiency against Carolina: 12.7

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opp-yards-per-point

They are the same exact number.

Our defensive scoring yards per point allowed is literally their offensive efficiency. The season number is all of our opponent's offensive efficiency combined.

Teamrankings is actually smart enough to refer to NFL stats the way the NFL says you should and what they really are. If you will notice smart stat websites, literally refer to most of the defensive stats, not as defensive stats, but as your opponent's offensive stats. Most of the NFL stats are not actual defensive stats. They are horrible measurements of defenses which is why you see a team that was ranked near the bottom in defense one season like Houston shoot to first the next, without any real, noticeable, explanations or directly pin-pointed changes. Which is why you can't possibly explain using yards or any of the other stats why New England who is ranked near the bottom in defensive stats, across all categories, allow so few points compared to us.

These stats that are used as defensive stats are mainly designed as offensive measurements because they are in essence, all offensive stats(not pure defensive measurements. it's damn near impossible to rate a defense) while it doesn't work to the same degree the other way around. That's why offense has such a huge say about how good your defense will be ranked.

For example, offensive turnovers hurt the defense, team and the offense. Takeaways help your team, offense and a defense. They don't go in both directions. Some things only work in one direction.

The logic behind them, is like a "one way" street. Offense hurts itself, the defense and the team when making a mistake. Defense hurts itself and the team when making a mistake. It has no effect on the offense. None. The defense can't do anything stupid that directly makes an offense's job harder. They simply cannot be blamed for an offense failing to do their job even though fans do it all season long. Only idiots say this repeatedly. They are not actually ever responsible for an offense scoring points or failing to score points. An offense is responsible for a defense allowing more points each game than they otherwise would. If an offense does a bad job and turns over the ball, it's going to make that defense's job harder and help the other team score more points. Defense helps itself, the team and the offense when it does something considered positive. Offense only helps itself or the team.

That's the logic of football. That's also how stats are tracked and work. That's why football much like basketball is an offensive driven sport, despite what most people think. It's a myth. So is "defense wins championships". It's also efficient offenses. If you go back in history and look at teams that won championships, the one thing that they have in common more than a defense great in points or yards allowed, is actually an efficient offense.

More teams have won championships and Super Bowls with efficient offenses, versus teams with "top defenses". Just like in the regular season. It's just a misunderstood, stupid ass cliche.

[mav1234]

of course for a given game your defense's YPP is the same as your opponent's YPP. However, for the entire season, it is not, as you define it, the following:

They literally take your opponent's offensive efficiency and add them up

It's not. If it was, you'd have 12.7 this week, 15 last week, 17 last week, giving you 44.7 for the last three weeks etc. Nor do you add up their overall YPP, or you'd end up with something totally different but equally wrong. You don't just "add it up." The reason I specify this is that in the past you have used non-regular calculations (like claiming that an 80 yard TD drive was "worth" 100 yards or something).

On top of that, all what you posted shows is that our defense was slightly more efficient than the worst case scenario (an opponent scoring an 80 yard TD on every drive they have). it doesn't tell you anything about what the offense did in that game AT ALL.

[teeray]

Dude defensive yards per point is your opponent's combined efficiency!

They literally take your opponent's offensive efficiency and add them up.

It basically tells you where turnovers are taking place by your offense. There's only one way for a defense to have an inefficient yards per point allowed: Your offense has to turn over the ball or special teams defense give up big plays. In other words: bad defending field position.

You can have a more efficient defense by stopping an opponent. But you can only have an inefficient number on the defensive side, if your offense turns over the ball in a bad spot or special teams can't stop them until they get to midfield or past the average starting field position of ~25 yards.

There's no way for a defensive yards per point allowed number to be inefficient, or less than average, without an offense doing something to screw them over. It's impossible. Mathematically. It just doesn't happen.

So what does this mean? Our offense isn't just inefficient in scoring points. It's also turning over the ball in bad spots or getting a lot of 3 and outs which puts the defense in a bad spot. It's not like Brady or the Patriots, which rarely turn it over in their own half or rarely get a 3 and out. We do it religiously. Shoot ourselves in the foot and our defense in the head.

We're worse than other inefficient offenses. We're probably the worst in the league. Worse than Indy. At least they can't freaking get going. We do but we stab ourselves in the back repeatedly. They're incapable. We're incompetent. "Plain and simple."

Ummm... That is all well and good except our defense is ranked 17th in average starting line of scrimmage before this past week (should move to @20th after this past week). Our offense avoids three and outs on 72% of their drives which is good for 6th in the entire NFL in avoiding 3 and outs.

So we don't do it religiously and they haven't had an anomaly of bad field position.

[Showtime]

of course for a given game your defense's YPP is the same as your opponent's YPP. However, for the entire season, it is not, as you define it, the following:

It's not. If it was, you'd have 12.7 this week, 15 last week, 17 last week, giving you 44.7 for the last three weeks etc. Nor do you add up their overall YPP, or you'd end up with something totally different but equally wrong. You don't just "add it up." The reason I specify this is that in the past you have used non-regular calculations (like claiming that an 80 yard TD drive was "worth" 100 yards or something).

On top of that, all what you posted shows is that our defense was slightly more efficient than the worst case scenario (an opponent scoring an 80 yard TD on every drive they have). it doesn't tell you anything about what the offense did in that game AT ALL.

lol. I just showed you it's the exact freaking number and you still argue it. You contradict yourself. There's a different explanation for the season number. That is not an average and there's a good reason for that.

[teeray]

lol. I just showed you it's the exact freaking number and you still argue it.

lol. Your entire argument has dissolved into saying when opposing defenses play well against us it helps their OYPP but still don't understand that if our defense also played well it would help our OYPP. Therefore our defense is having a negative effect on our OYPP when compared to the rest of the league.

Or does this new metric only apply solely to the Panthers.

[teeray]

By the way. Does anyone else remember when PFFL claimed that 16.6 was "100% efficiency" (100 yards divided by 6). Now that the Panthers OYPP is 16.6 do you think it is operating at 100% efficiency?

[teeray]

Also, if we turned the ball over that deep in our own territory religiously our defense wouldn't be 30th in yards allowed per drive. There wouldn't be enough field.

[Showtime]

By the way. Does anyone else remember when PFFL claimed that 16.6 was "100% efficiency" (100 yards divided by 6). Now that the Panthers OYPP is 16.6 do you think it is operating at 100% efficiency?

Scoring offense. SCORING. You still have no clue what that means and how it's different from our actual offense.

You still don't understand that an offense can be inefficient, but your scoring offense, thanks to defense and special teams, can be efficient.

You still don't understand that doesn't necessarily mean your actual offense is good, but that in reality it can just as easily mean it's getting more help from the other side of your team.

Like what happened against the Lions. Our offense sucked. But our special teams and defense helped them out big time. ST scored for them and defense got 3 takeaways which gave them great field position. This made our total scoring offense, efficent. Not thanks to Cam Newton who threw 4 picks, and killing scoring defense yards per point allowed, but thanks to the defensive takeaways and Pillares!

This is also what makes an offense that turns over the ball 3 times at the most cirtical moment of the game, and gets repeated 3 and outs which puts our defense in horrible defending positions, appear like they are doing a good job. While yards per point, tells you what the fug really happened.

You only see the effect a score has. You only see when a defense gets scored on. This is what your eyes and most peoples' eyes pay attention to when watching football. You don't actually keep track of how bad our offense fuged over the defense and where our defense has to start defending from every game. You just don't want them to allow a score. You don't actually pay attention of the likely hood of allowing a score depending on where our opponent starts. You want the defense to stop them no matter what. Which makes you a typical, irrational, illogical, football fan, and on top of that you go around throwing stats all day long.

You're too busy yelling at the other poo that's more exciting, but not necessarily any more important. You're more like a fanatic. Not a fan. And what's worse is you are a player fanatic. You go to great lengths using stats in shady ways to make one side of your own team look bad while I'm simply trying to present you both. Our defense and defensive players aren't our enemies. They are part of the same team and more often than not, defenses get blamed a lot more often unfairly.

[BigSyke]

Scoring offense. SCORING. You still have no clue what that means and how it's different from our actual offense.

You still don't understand that an offense can be inefficient, but your scoring offense, thanks to defense and special teams, can be efficient.

You still don't understand that doesn't necessarily mean your actual offense is good, but that in reality it can just as easily mean it's getting more help from the other side of your team.

Like what happened against the Lions. Our offense sucked. But our special teams and defense helped them out big time. ST scored for them and defense got 3 takeaways which gave them great field position. This made our total scoring offense, efficent. Not thanks to Cam Newton who threw 3 pics, and killing scoring defense yards per point allowed, but thanks to the defensive takeaways and Pillares!

This is also what makes an offense that turns over the ball 3 times at the most cirtical moment of the game, and gets repeated 3 and outs which puts our defense in horrible defending positions, appear like they are doing a good job. While yards per point, tells you what the fug really happened.

You only see the affect a score has. You only see when a defense gets scored on. This is what your eyes and most peoples' eyes pay attention to when watching football. You don't actually keep track of how bad our offense fuged over the defense and where our defense has to start defending from every game. You just don't want them to allow a score. You don't actually pay attention of the likely hood of allowing a score depending on where our opponent starts. You want the defense to stop them no matter what. Which makes you a typical, irrational, illogical, football stats, and on top of that you go around throwing stats all day long.

You're too busy yelling at the other poo that's more exciting, but not necessarily any more important.

alright you say your scoring offense does not mean you have to be an efficient offense overall because you are put in good postions by the defense and special teams. ISNT THAT HOW The Golden Calf of Bristol WINS!!!

all of the potenial playoff teams score as many points panthers do a game. around 24 and 25 points!!!!

so do we have a bad overall offense or bad scoring offense????