Are we as good as we think we are?

[mav1234]

It was part of, but not the only reason. I do think that Richardson and Hurney vastly overestimated the talent on the team. That's why Hurney kept stressing how this team had so much better talent than it's record. That's also why we spent a boat load on keeping our own guys instead of going out and acquiring a bunch, because they did believe we had the core of a winning team once we got our QB (and maybe we do).

But yeah, obviously there was more going on than winning. I thought your argument was that sacrificing a season to rebuild didn't lead to being a better team as evidenced by Miami and Denver or something which didn't make much sense.

I do think that gutting the team and starting over can often lead to either a better result longer term, or completely fuging the team over. Where we were was basically mediocrity - and if we wanted to be better than that, it was going to take a major change.

[ed bell]

I'm talking about Fox and the argument that you need to suck to rebuild. Not Denver. Fox and a retarded argument. Denver needed a coach with a good philosophy. Fox is a good coach with a good philosophy even though his style of offense may not be to all of our tastes.

Fox didn't freaking play The Golden Calf of Bristol from the start this year. But he's also not too stubborn to stop playing him once he starts getting results. Elway and Fox will NOT sabotage their own team for Luck this year, you understand?

They are very much aware 7-4 is probably going to miss out on Luck, but they are willing to take even an 7-9 season and miss out on Luck than suck for him. They KNOW rookies are a crap shoot. They also understand winning now, even with what you have, under less than ideal conditions doesn't prevent you from building for the future.

One has NOTHING to do with the other. Because picking high means little in the long run.

If you think John Fox and John Elway decided to put The Golden Calf of Bristol in there because they wanted to stop the bleeding and win games, you are delusional. I'm not saying they didn't want to win games, I'm saying they didn't believe The Golden Calf of Bristol was going to change things. Elway does not believe he is the future of the franchise, possibly to this day. John Fox didn't believe it, but is going to ride it now. The Bronco fans forced their hands....makes the fans look like geniuses, but the team has to finish the season. This experiment is going to plot the course for the Bronco's for the foreseeable future. Who knows how that plays out? The current consensus is that you have to have a proficient passing-oriented game to win. That's why Fox wasn't re-signed here, yet here is is, piloting Denver to a possible winning season, dancing on the edge yet again. Can The Golden Calf of Bristol evolve into the franchise QB? I have no idea...

[mav1234]

I think it's premature to say the Rams are screwed with Bradford, but that contract they gave him does seem outrageous.

[MWCarolina]

I would suggest Dolphins draft, Robert Griffin III.

if they get him, that would make Bush more dangerous too!!

as for the panthers, the defense isnt as good, but it finally played a game yesterday. the offense has been good all year, no questions asked there.

[SOJA]

[ed bell]

Question: If we "gutted" the team and went cheap in 2010, who was released that debilitated our roster? Mushin Muhammed, Brad Hoover and Chris Harris? I loved the contributions they brought, but they weren't the pieces that would have given us a playoff team in 2010, and they surely weren't eliminated to save tons of money. Yes, no significant FA's were brought in, but we had many of the same components that were in place since 2008. We were going down the drain because we didn't have a reliable answer at QB.....Moore and Clausen didn't get it done and didn't show that they were going to be the answer long term.

The "we decided not to win" theory is wrong, even if that's the bed that was made. Management gambled on the QB's we had and drafted, as well as allowing Fox to play out his contract. If anything, I wish they would have fired Fox, but he hung on and Jerry let him play it out. I think Fox and Jerry were selfish to not work something out there, unless they really expected to improve on 7-9 with Moore and/or Clausen.

[chef17]

Only the Panthers can dictate the rest of this season because if u pay attention, those teams who were winning left and right are starting to regress. The teams with offense who are hanging tough and defense who knows how to make that final push are starting to make their team to the finishe line. Will the Panthers be one of those teams who will make the push to the finish line?

I have not checked ur schedule but u're playing a team next week that rattled the offense a bit the last time they played. I really doubt it will happen again this Sunday.

Defense shows up big time the next four games, strong possibility of pulling off a respectable season for how good the offense has been playing. Defense MIA, season may just end at 4-8.

How does this happen?

[TheRealDeal]

Not firing Fox is the single biggest reason we are not playoff contenders this year.

[ed bell]

Not firing Fox is the single biggest reason we are not playoff contenders this year.

I chalk that up to another example of Richardson valuing loyalty over reading the writing on the wall. In hindsight, I see that Fox had run his course here. At the time I thought he might have been able to rebound from 2009's 7-9 with Moore. Didn't happen.

[mav1234]

When JR gave me that call last year, he said it was loyalty and that he did think that Fox was a great coach and able to coach up the younger players even if his time in Carolina was running out.

At the same time, he even admitted in a press conference money was a factor, so. =\

[ed bell]

So explain who was involved when you say the team was "gutted" of veterans?

[teeray]

Most of the consistently good teams had to rebuild and have pooty seasons for a while before they became great franchises. The teams that float around the middle tend to stay there. Kinda like the Panthers did during the Fox era. We were just good enough to be average.

Anybody can have a good season here and there (Tampa last year or us during the Fox era) but not be real contenders year in and year out.

Belichick was 5-11 his first year in New England, The Colts went 3-13 the year before and 3-13 the rookie year of Peyton Manning.

Pittsburgh from '98 to 00' rebuilt a lot of their roster and had a losing record (22-26) over those three seasons.

I don't know how someone using a short term spike in wins like Miami and Denver as evidence that you don't go through growing pains as you rebuild a roster. It happens to most every team when they go through this. At least the ones that are consistently competing for the Super Bowl

We had 7 years of being average to good. But that window with that core had closed. As your roster transitions to a new core it takes time to meld.

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

lol typical TRD bullpoo in this thread.

I mean Jesus he's begging the question in the freaking thread title-it's like the "so do your parents know you're gay?" trap from grade school. Anyone who tries to debate him on the topic without calling bullpoo on "thinking we're that good" just tacitly accepted the premise. Congratulations, you're now handcuffed to his original erroneous assertion and you're stuck arguing about Matt Moore because that's exactly where he wanted to steer things.

[TheRealDeal]

So what you are saying is you are mad?