2004=2009?????

[bleys]

Kemo and Moose were early acquisitions. I admit I don't recall at what point in the offseason that Stephen Davis was signed. And Vincent was signed in the middle of the offseason.

So is that what you have to hang your hat on? Because we did decently with ONE guy that wasn't signed immediately, that should be the template for signing free agents?

I can't believe you bit on that. Regardless of when the players were brought in during the offseason, ITS STILL THE OFFSEASON. lmao

after 11 pages, I should have known better.

Thanks for addressing the only issue which has nothing to do with anything.

There have been a poo ton of players brought in during the offseason who have filled holes. Which is what you all want. If that's all you have to hang your hat on then I completely overestimated you.

With that aside, perhaps next you can lay out your plan of action that our dumber than 5th grade FO can't seem to figure out. What players would you have brought in? (and straight up, just type the names and why. Don't worry about anything else. Back that up, at least. lol)

[Taom82]

We already have our first rounder. There isn't a player worth trading up into the first at a need position. Not considering what they'd cost.

We're not looking at a one-year fix at the DL. Wether Pep stays or not, we need depth at every DL position. Other than Robertson, it's best to wait until after the draft to fill in spots.

The important thing right now is to get the guys currently on the roster familiar with the new scheme.

Every year around a third of all nfl rosters swap out. Most of the players being swapped are depth and special teamers. At most of our positions we are set depth wise. There isn't a reason for the FO to get excited about anything at this point.

I get as frustrated during the offseason as the next guy, but we should all be used to the boredom and constant arguing by now.

DL and CB will be adressed through the draft and through late FA signings. Nothing flashy for the news.

[bleys]

DL and CB will be adressed through the draft and through late FA signings. Nothing flashy for the news.

write it down. and to all those complaining, any player picked up this early in FA would have been the first person you started bitching about.

go figure....

[Woodie]

Also, I remember very clearly that the Fox/Hurney groupies were praising them when they let Spoon leave because it was smart of them to not overpay for him. LOL!

See, this is the crux of the problem. You see a point, but don't really understand it. I was one of the fans (not necessarily here, but on various Panther forums) that agreed with what happened. Not because I had anything against Spoon, I actually really liked him, but because he was paid far more than he was worth.

Lets go back. First of all, there has been some incorrect info mentioned in this thread about the Morgan/Spoon decisions. For those that do not remember the actual details, both were offered similar contracts by the Panthers (roughly 25-27 million, 5/years). Morgan chose to sign his, while Spoon decided to see if he could get something better from either the Panthers or another team.

But the thing most seem to have forgotten, or never really knew, is that the Panthers kept their offer for Spoon on the table, even after Morgan signed. In fact, they even upped their offer slightly. But there was a ceiling as to what they felt he was worth, and when the Rams came in with a ridiculous contract offer (approx. 35 mil., 5 years), they said it was too rich for him. And based on his production with the Rams, they were right.

Bottom line is the Panthers did not drop the ball on the Morgan/Witherspoon situation. They were still trying to keep Spoon after Morgan signed, but he left for more money than he was worth, and the Panthers rightly let him go. Nobody praised Hurney/Fox for letting him go, they praised them for not overpaying for a nice, but not elite player.

[AKPantherFan]

write it down. and to all those complaining, any player picked up this early in FA would have been the first person you started bitching about.

go figure....

LMAO-

Really......

maybe because of expectations, but not talent. ......

[Fireball77]

Thank you Woodie. I couldn't remember all those details but I did remember that it was never Morgan OR Spoon. You also understand the concept of VALUE for the dollar which is an understanding that a lot of fans seem to struggle with. A good player should not be paid elite player money. I even agreed that they should have let Moose walk when he did for the contract he wanted. Another good player who got huge bucks elsewhere. Perhaps you give them a bit more than you normally would for other factors such as they are an extremely good fit for your team, but if you continue to give good players elite money, you won't be as competitive as you could be.

Of course, even more killing is giving average players good to great player money. See Snyder, Dan.

[Fiz]

Bottom line is the Panthers did not drop the ball on the Morgan/Witherspoon situation. They were still trying to keep Spoon after Morgan signed, but he left for more money than he was worth, and the Panthers rightly let him go. Nobody praised Hurney/Fox for letting him go, they praised them for not overpaying for a nice, but not elite player.

they should have ignored morgan totally and just focused on the guy who could play two linebacker spots very well. There wasn't a market for Morgan and they had to have known that. If Spoon had signed here, Morgan would have in all likely hood taken whatever we'd given him.

And I'm not sure what you're talking about with him not living up to his contract. He's pretty much the only stand out player in St Louis. Until this year where he was playing with two torn labrums and a bad groin, he had good tackle numbers.

I mean if you're willing to pay two players 25 mil a piece, you should be willing to pay those two 30/20 mil respectively. They dropped the ball thinking that Morgan could ever stay healthy, which of course he couldn't.

[pantherclaw]

Also, I remember very clearly that the Fox/Hurney groupies were praising them when they let Spoon leave because it was smart of them to not overpay for him. LOL!

And what has Spoon done with the Rams? Shown he was overpaid.

[Woodie]

Thank you Woodie. I couldn't remember all those details but I did remember that it was never Morgan OR Spoon. You also understand the concept of VALUE for the dollar which is an understanding that a lot of fans seem to struggle with. A good player should not be paid elite player money. I even agreed that they should have let Moose walk when he did for the contract he wanted. Another good player who got huge bucks elsewhere. Perhaps you give them a bit more than you normally would for other factors such as they are an extremely good fit for your team, but if you continue to give good players elite money, you won't be as competitive as you could be.

Of course, even more killing is giving average players good to great player money. See Snyder, Dan.

Yep, the key concept is fiscal responsibility. You establish a maximum value for a player, and do not pay more than that for him...in fact, if you can get him for less it's even better. The bottom line is that you have an entire team to put together, and overspending on any player can be hugely detrimental to fielding a competative team. Sometimes you may pay more for a player that you know is a good fit on the team, bet even then, there has to be a limit as to how high you are willing to go.

[Woodie]

they should have ignored morgan totally and just focused on the guy who could play two linebacker spots very well. There wasn't a market for Morgan and they had to have known that. If Spoon had signed here, Morgan would have in all likely hood taken whatever we'd given him.

And I'm not sure what you're talking about with him not living up to his contract. He's pretty much the only stand out player in St Louis. Until this year where he was playing with two torn labrums and a bad groin, he had good tackle numbers.

I mean if you're willing to pay two players 25 mil a piece, you should be willing to pay those two 30/20 mil respectively. They dropped the ball thinking that Morgan could ever stay healthy, which of course he couldn't.

But the thing is, it wasn't an either/or situation. The team signing Morgan had nothing to do with Witherspoon leaving. Like I said, Morgan's signing had no impact on the Panther's negotiations with Witherspoon whatsoever.

As for Morgan's value, you are mistaken. You personally may not have liked him, but he had a very good reputation around the league. Most felt he was an upper eshelon LB, but that he just couldn't stay healthy. So there was value, did they overpay him, possibly. There's no question it was a gamble, but when he was healthy, he had a huge impact on the team's play. Basically, he was a perfect fit here (peformance-wise), and thus had outstanding value for the Panthers. Unfortunately, the gamble didn't pay off, so it looks like a bad bet to many fans.

And by no means am I saying Spoon has not been good in St. Louis, but he was paid like an all-star, but hasn't quite played at that level. He's a nice, solid LB that would be an asset for most teams, but not at the price he was given. And while the difference between 25-35 million might not seem like much to you, it is huge on the salary cap. They have to be smart when deciding when to buy and when to let go. It's a balance that has broken more than one team.

[carpanfan96]

barring a trade into the top ten there isn't a defensive end they can get that can replace what peppers brings, regardless of how overrated julius is.

now they're saying that orakpo is going to cleveland. he was the only first round DE that could play in a 4-3. Brown is a 3-4 OLB.

the only reason i could think of for the panthers to want a first rounder this year is to reach on peria jerry, who frankly isn't that much better than someone like sen'derrick marks.

I agree Marks and Jerry will probably end up having similar careers, I might lean towards Marks having a better one at that.

As for the first round DE, Ayers now that he's moved into the top 15 of the first round is the only other DE in the draft that I think could and would be effective in a 4-3 at DE.

[Fiz]

But the thing is, it wasn't an either/or situation. The team signing Morgan had nothing to do with Witherspoon leaving. Like I said, Morgan's signing had no impact on the Panther's negotiations with Witherspoon whatsoever.

you're right, it wasn't an either or situation. they should have made signing spoon the priority and called morgan's bluff.

im not disagreeing with you on how it happened, i'm disagreeing that the way it happens absolves hurney.

As for Morgan's value, you are mistaken. You personally may not have liked him, but he had a very good reputation around the league. Most felt he was an upper eshelon LB, but that he just couldn't stay healthy. So there was value, did they overpay him, possibly. There's no question it was a gamble, but when he was healthy, he had a huge impact on the team's play. Basically, he was a perfect fit here (peformance-wise), and thus had outstanding value for the Panthers. Unfortunately, the gamble didn't pay off, so it looks like a bad bet to many fans.

you have to take injury history into consideration, especially when you're willing to risk losing the younger, healthier, comparable player.

And by no means am I saying Spoon has not been good in St. Louis, but he was paid like an all-star, but hasn't quite played at that level. He's a nice, solid LB that would be an asset for most teams, but not at the price he was given.

listen let's not pretend he's surrounded by a lot of talent in st louis.

And while the difference between 25-35 million might not seem like much to you, it is huge on the salary cap. They have to be smart when deciding when to buy and when to let go. It's a balance that has broken more than one team.

yes i am well aware of how the salary cap works.

if you're willing to pay two players 25 mil over 5 years, one a young, up and coming linebacker and the other a linebacker that can't stay on the field, you can afford to pay the younger guy more and pursue him more heavily.

obviously i have the gift of hindsight though, but fox was never able to face the facts with morgan and it cost the team in 2006 and 2007

[The Link]

you're right, it wasn't an either or situation. they should have made signing spoon the priority and called morgan's bluff.

im not disagreeing with you on how it happened, i'm disagreeing that the way it happens absolves hurney.

you have to take injury history into consideration, especially when you're willing to risk losing the younger, healthier, comparable player.

listen let's not pretend he's surrounded by a lot of talent in st louis.

yes i am well aware of how the salary cap works.

if you're willing to pay two players 25 mil over 5 years, one a young, up and coming linebacker and the other a linebacker that can't stay on the field, you can afford to pay the younger guy more and pursue him more heavily.

obviously i have the gift of hindsight though, but fox was never able to face the facts with morgan and it cost the team in 2006 and 2007

Another reason I'm not a fan of Fox...

[Woodie]

you're right, it wasn't an either or situation. they should have made signing spoon the priority and called morgan's bluff.

What bluff? Basically, it sounds like you just wanted to get rid of Morgan no matter what.

im not disagreeing with you on how it happened, i'm disagreeing that the way it happens absolves hurney.

What does Hurney need to be absolved from? He placed a value on Witherspoon, and when another team came along and offered him more than Hurney felt he was worth, they let him walk. That's what GM's get paid to do. Whether you agree or disagree, it is his job to place a value on players, and a responsible GM stays within those boundries when negotiating contracts.

you have to take injury history into consideration, especially when you're willing to risk losing the younger, healthier, comparable player.

Earlier you agreed that it wasn't an either/or situation, but here you are still using the Morgan signing as having an impact on Witherspoon leaving, when that was not the case at all.

listen let's not pretend he's surrounded by a lot of talent in st louis.

True, but that doesn't mean he is an all-start quality LB. He was never an all-star here, and he hasn't been for the Rams. Any ideas that he could have been if his situation were different is nothing more than simple speculation.

yes i am well aware of how the salary cap works.

if you're willing to pay two players 25 mil over 5 years, one a young, up and coming linebacker and the other a linebacker that can't stay on the field, you can afford to pay the younger guy more and pursue him more heavily.

But, just because you CAN pay a player a certain salary does not mean he is worth that salary, or that it is the responsible thing to do. And they did pursue re-signing Spoon heavily. He just waited it out to see if someone would pony up a bit more than was currently being offered, and the Rams bit. But just because they felt his max value was not in the range St. Louis offered does not mean they did not work hard to keep him.

And just as with Spoon, the Panthers established a value for Morgan, but unlike Will, Morgan decided to take the deal. However, the money they offered to Morgan was never going to be used on Spoon. They were already willing to pay the max that they felt he was worth, so Morgan did not take anything away from Spoon.

obviously i have the gift of hindsight though, but fox was never able to face the facts with morgan and it cost the team in 2006 and 2007

As I said, the gamble did not pay off. But the fact Morgan was such a great talent, and the medical staff signed off on him, suggests that it was a reasonable bet. Remember, the injury that ended his career here (his achillies) had not occured yet when he signed the contract.

My point is that it was really not as black and white as you, and many others, may think. Looking back it seems like an easy decision, but at the time, it was hard to let someone with his talent go when there was still a good chance he could overcome his tendency to get injured (much like other players such as Fred Taylor have done).