Giving our defense excuses

[Peppermint9030]

ugh. another reading comprehension fail of yours.

i didn't say that we had switched to a lebeau 3-4.

i said the switch in scheme was almost as drastic as switching to one.

meh....i'm done for a while.

time for more important matters like eating, hanging out with the family, and flossing my toes.

The scheme is easier to change then going into a different formation...Thats what im saying. Im saying let me repeat my self again! It's easier to run a different scheme then it is to switch defenses. If anything all thats changed is terminology and assignments...It's not like were standing up Charles Johnson every play and putting Fua at Nose tackle...This shouldn't be that big of a transition...The offense made a bigger transition then the defense I don't see Steve Smith running around like a chicken with his head cut off because they use a different number to call a streak...

[Peppermint9030]

Remember if you make excuses for the 28th ranked defense in the league you should be banned.

[mav1234]

thanks mr. moderator

[panthers55]

Ok im gonna ask a question here and maybe one of you future GM's can answer it for me...

Ray Lewis...The GREAT Ray Lewis the biggest emotional leader in the NFL on defense goes down with a toe injury out for about 3 weeks...

They have the 8-1 49ers coming in...

McClain a no name line backer is Ray's backup...He has 9 tackles they shut down everything the 9ers threw at em. No leadership set back, filled in did his job and moves on...

Were so far away from having plug and play defense which is required in a good defense is it not? You gonna debate that? Our defense has nothing, Beason is a great player...Literally that's all we have.

My OP stated Anderson is ok, Johnson is good (he's not great) and Gamble is good...

To say Terrel and Fua are doing their job is absurd...Is this not a "what have you one for me lately league"? You think McClain was expected to start at any point this season? No, but when Ray went down he made the most of it...

Terrel and Fua are not making the most of it, besides Gamble our whole secondary is getting their shot to prove they deserve it with no pressure, and they can't do it...

That is what I mean by lack of talent...You can't rely on more then half of our defense to fill in for 1 week on these other solid defense's around the league.

The coaching isn't even there to get the most out of these guys, look around the league. Quit being a homer and saying Beason is the main reason. Rayzor you said this D was mediocre at best last year...Was Beason not starting?

So you are comparing a top 5 defense for years with a ton of veterans who have played together for many seasons under the same head coach and scheme who don't fall apart when their emotional but aging leader is out for a few games as analogous to our situation. Lets see we have a historic top 15 defense that was dismantled 2 years ago and replaced with rookies and journeymen. We have our top NT and 2 best linebackers on IR and a defensive backfield with one good player and a bunch of guys who are not very good led by a new coordinator in a new scheme without an offseason to prepare and are allowed a total of 14 padded practices during the season.

Sure they are comparable and since they missed Ray Lewis for 3 games that is the same situation as ours. Silly me to think otherwise.

[panthers55]

The scheme is easier to change then going into a different formation...Thats what im saying. Im saying let me repeat my self again! It's easier to run a different scheme then it is to switch defenses. If anything all thats changed is terminology and assignments...It's not like were standing up Charles Johnson every play and putting Fua at Nose tackle...This shouldn't be that big of a transition...The offense made a bigger transition then the defense I don't see Steve Smith running around like a chicken with his head cut off because they use a different number to call a streak...

What the heck are you talking about. Let me repeat myself, what the heck are you talking about. A formation is simply the way the players line up- that doesn't take anything to learn. Within each formation there are multiple schemes which you run out of that formation such as a run scheme, a blitz scheme or a passing scheme. All of the adjustments and gap assignments are functions of the schemes run within the formation. Just because you still run a 4-3 doesn't mean it is easy to learn. For example a 4-3 running a cover 3 passing scheme is not the same at all as running an aggressive 4-3 fire zone scheme. It isn't hard to go from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in terms of formation, you stand in a different spot. But the various schemes you run out of that formation is where all the difficulty comes in. Here is an article that might help.

http://www.happynews.com/living/highschoolfootballplayers/football-101-defense.htm

Each play has a formation and scheme designed to stop a running or passing play. A defensive formation is a predetermined alignment of defensive players on the field. A scheme involves certain movements and coverage of receivers after the offense begins its play.

Defensive plays involve a formation, run stopping scheme, a rushing scheme, and a pass coverage scheme. There are a tremendous number of variations in the schemes, each designed to stop certain types of running or passing plays. Formations are the base of any defense.

Which is harder to learn, the offense or the defense? Depends on what you mean by harder. The offense requires more memorization of plays and variations and for positions like wide receivers reading the defense. coordinating on hot reads and cutting off routes. But their biggest advantage is that they know what the play is and where it is going. The defense has to read the offense, make adjustments and try and force them out of what they want to do. They have to be able to react and adjust and be prepared for mutiple plays out of the same formation. One is more intellectual while the other is more athletic and instinctual.

THe stereo type is that offensive players are more cerebral and controlled where the defensive guys are more aggressive and reactive.

[panthers55]

Bro im not just talking about the cb's...If you run a cover 2 out of a 4-3 yes the cb's responsibilities are the same...The linemen and line backers in a 4-3 are a complete 180 to the linemen and linebackers in a 3-4...And you told me that we dont play a 4-3 but we run a cover 2...BUT WE PLAY A fugING 4-3 DEFENSE... a cover 2 is not a formation.

A 4-3 using a cover 2 shell is the formation. You can argue that a cover 2 shell is a passing scheme instead of a formation but the flaw here is that you are presenting them as distinct and they are not. Schemes exist inside of the formation and dictate what each person does on every play. There are 4-3 overs and unders, tradition 4-3s, Miami 4-3s and the list goes on. The players line up slightly differently but it is the schemes within the base formation which dictate how the defense will attack the offense in each phase of the play from a rushing, passing, and blitzing point of view.

Of course schemes are easier to change than base formations. You can change schemes sometimes on every down and can audiblize from one scheme to another based on the offensive formation without changing the base alignment at all. But I am not sure what the point is here. Formations and schemes are intertwined not distinct. Changing from a 4-3 defense to a 3-4 defense is not hard either if you are just considering where everyone is supposed to stand. Changing the schemes within the two different formations is where the difficulty lies and adapting the scheme to the personnel you have is the concern.

[Peppermint9030]

A 4-3 using a cover 2 shell is the formation. You can argue that a cover 2 shell is a passing scheme instead of a formation but the flaw here is that you are presenting them as distinct and they are not. Schemes exist inside of the formation and dictate what each person does on every play. There are 4-3 overs and unders, tradition 4-3s, Miami 4-3s and the list goes on. The players line up slightly differently but it is the schemes within the base formation which dictate how the defense will attack the offense in each phase of the play from a rushing, passing, and blitzing point of view.

Of course schemes are easier to change than base formations. You can change schemes sometimes on every down and can audiblize from one scheme to another based on the offensive formation without changing the base alignment at all. But I am not sure what the point is here. Formations and schemes are intertwined not distinct. Changing from a 4-3 defense to a 3-4 defense is not hard either if you are just considering where everyone is supposed to stand. Changing the schemes within the two different formations is where the difficulty lies and adapting the scheme to the personnel you have is the concern.

Panthers55 before you attack me I want you to read my original post again...Our defense doesn't have any talent the Ravens were just an example...A severe example? Yes...But still just a reference I can use a lot of defenses in the league as an example to my point about 27 other teams...

You said our team was blown up two years ago, we lost Beason and our defense doesn't have much talent outside of that. That was ORIGINAL POINT to this whole thread! Yea Beason is a loss, but there simply wasn't and isn't enough talent on this defense to be a top fight defense...Or even a top 20 defense!

The coaching doesn't help...Our D cor was never anything to admire over in Philly either...A matter of fact plenty of Philly fans were happy he was gone. Like you stated we don't have the talent, and I don't think we have the coaching either...

I don't think these problems will resolve with Ron Edwards, and Jon Beason either (great player)...Who do we draft? This is a weak DT class and the top DE is not so hot...So do we draft Blackmon and go D from rounds 2-7? Well we can't do that according to people on this site because draft picks from 2-7 are all considered projects.

Unless we find the Cam Newton of defense in this years draft and fill voids a lot of voids through FA...This defense is going to suffer again...Rome was not built in a day, and building this defense will be like building Rome.

And in a 3-4 weather you run fire zones, cover 2, man up, cover 3 w/e...You need a massive Nose Tackle, strong de's that act as tackles, pass rushing OLB's, and powerful space taking MLB's...So no matter what scheme is ran that would be a pretty tough transition for a 4-3 style team...

I played college football and when we switched formations players were more out of position and had to switch positions, had to bulk to fit the spot, it was a bigger change. Our Dline was way to small to fit in a 3-4, weather they stunted different, bull rushed, or took up space they were too small to make room for the clean up line backers...

[CRA]

Panthers55 before you attack me I want you to read my original post again...Our defense doesn't have any talent the Ravens were just an example...A severe example? Yes...But still just a reference I can use a lot of defenses in the league as an example to my point about 27 other teams...

You said our team was blown up two years ago, we lost Beason and our defense doesn't have much talent outside of that. That was ORIGINAL POINT to this whole thread! Yea Beason is a loss, but there simply wasn't and isn't enough talent on this defense to be a top fight defense...Or even a top 20 defense!

The coaching doesn't help...Our D cor was never anything to admire over in Philly either...A matter of fact plenty of Philly fans were happy he was gone. Like you stated we don't have the talent, and I don't think we have the coaching either...

I don't think these problems will resolve with Ron Edwards, and Jon Beason either (great player)...Who do we draft? This is a weak DT class and the top DE is not so hot...So do we draft Blackmon and go D from rounds 2-7? Well we can't do that according to people on this site because draft picks from 2-7 are all considered projects.

Unless we find the Cam Newton of defense in this years draft and fill voids a lot of voids through FA...This defense is going to suffer again...Rome was not built in a day, and building this defense will be like building Rome.

And in a 3-4 weather you run fire zones, cover 2, man up, cover 3 w/e...You need a massive Nose Tackle, strong de's that act as tackles, pass rushing OLB's, and powerful space taking MLB's...So no matter what scheme is ran that would be a pretty tough transition for a 4-3 style team...

I played college football and when we switched formations players were more out of position and had to switch positions, had to bulk to fit the spot, it was a bigger change. Our Dline was way to small to fit in a 3-4, weather they stunted different, bull rushed, or took up space they were too small to make room for the clean up line backers...

Rome wasn't built in a day....but in today's NFL you can change a unit overnight practically if you want it.

Carolina's offense is an example of that. igget turnaround in NFL history. If we get healthy and commit to improving the D it can happen quick.

[Dex]

Cam has to starting shooting the gaps and stop teams from running all over us. He just stands there and might as well be on the sidelines.

[Peppermint9030]

Rome wasn't built in a day....but in today's NFL you can change a unit overnight practically if you want it.

Carolina's offense is an example of that. igget turnaround in NFL history. If we get healthy and commit to improving the D it can happen quick.

Thats why I said unless we find the Cam Newton of defense.

[rayzor]

we have the cam newton of the defense.

his name is jon beason.

he is the QB on defense. the guy that the defense is supposed to be built around and the guy that manages what happens on the field, making sure that people are lining up where they are supposed to do and keeping things tight. we have the key ingredient. now it's just a matter of having the right pieces around him and. regardless of your opinion, we have most of the pieces there.

we have the right Sam. we had the right Will, he just got hurt and likely needs to be replaced. we have the right DEs in front of him. we have a very good strong safety in godfrey. we have an elite CB in gamble. sharrod martin is decent enough at FS to not be a liability. we have solid depth at CB, but we do need help across from gamble.

first order of business for the new coaching staff was to turn around the worst offense in the league. they have pretty much done that.

next order of business is to get healthy guys back on the field on defense and fill in the few holes that exist on defense...mainly DT (which we have a good start in edwards, fua, and mcclain contrary to your opinion) in which we only need one more vet brought in to make a solid rotation. we need a weakside LB. we need a stout #2 CB. beyond that we are set. those pieces can be added this offseason. i have no reason to doubt that they will be.

[CRA]

Thats why I said unless we find the Cam Newton of defense.

Nah, QB is a unique position.

There are realistically no Peyton Manning's on D. No one player will make or break a team if the overall cast is strong. Get healthy and commit to improving it.....and Ron Rivera will have a good D soon.

Losing Beason hurt a lot....but it was a much bigger blow b/c of how weak we were in so many areas.

[rayzor]

Nah, QB is a unique position.

There are realistically no Peyton Manning's on D. No one player will make or break a team if the overall cast is strong. Get healthy and commit to improving it.....and Ron Rivera will have a good D soon.

Losing Beason hurt a lot....but it was a much bigger blow b/c of how weak we were in so many areas.

the MLB is about as close as it gets. that's why they get the headset.

when you have a more experienced team full of players who know all their responsibilities and have been in the system for a while (years) then i think that what you said about no one player will make or brake a team. until we have that, we need a guy like beason who knows what everyone is supposed to be doing and makes sure that people don't do any freelancing.

[CRA]

Cam has to starting shooting the gaps and stop teams from running all over us. He just stands there and might as well be on the sidelines.

Cam also needs to get off his lazy butt and be a gunner on ST.....giving up the most kick returns for TDs in the NFL is pathetic.