Giving our defense excuses

[CRA]

3rd and 4th round picks are considered projects? Tell me where we drafted Charles Johnson who always showed dominating signs, apparently Brandon Spikes is not a good line backer in New England...

Apparently we never drafted Steve Smith in the 3rd round, 3rd and 4th round picks our looked at as projects for teams that can't evaluate talent...Your telling me McClain and Fua were drafted to not make an impact right away?

Charles Johnson was a project. He wasn't a Julius Peppers who could be a starting DE as a rookie.

They signed Ron Edwards b/c they were both projects.....projects that were going to get thrown into the fire early.

[mav1234]

that's debatable really. the average 2nd round player is expected to play... one of the reason relatively few QBs are taken in the 2nd round is that if they were expected to play well early they'd be first rounders etc...

When a QB is taken early in the second round, there's a good chance they WILL play early, because if a team is drafting a QB early in the second round, they very well might have at some point in the first, too... just not where they were initially picking.

They may not have the same investment in the player as a top 10 in the first round but there's a good chance that player will start in the very near future... and how near depends on the situation on the team and how the player does in camp.

[panthers55]

3rd and 4th round picks are considered projects? Tell me where we drafted Charles Johnson who always showed dominating signs, apparently Brandon Spikes is not a good line backer in New England...

Apparently we never drafted Steve Smith in the 3rd round, 3rd and 4th round picks our looked at as projects for teams that can't evaluate talent...Your telling me McClain and Fua were drafted to not make an impact right away?

Johnson was a project coming out of college. He was only a junior and not big or strong enough to start at DE. We took him in the third round hoping to develop him into an impact player feeling like he had a big enough frame to pack on the muscle down the road.

Brandon Spikes wasn't exactly a project but he only played in 12 games last year and had 38 solo tackles and 23 assists or 3 tackles and 2 assists a game. Not bad at all but not dominating either. This year he has played in 7 games and has 32 solo tackles and 12 assists. He has some way to go but is improving which you expect from a third rounder.

Steve Smith was a third rounder simply because he was considered too small and would only be a returner in the NFl. What everyone but us didn't know is that he has the eye of the tiger and way overachieves what you would expect. Remember he wasn't really a receiver for us until year 2.

Fua and McClain may have been drafted to play in the rotation but honestly both of them have played poorly and are clearly projects. Fua wasn't supposed to start, Ron Edwards was supposed to be the starter.

[rayzor]

the QB of our defense is hurt and out for the year. saying that isn't a significant factor is beyond ignorant.

back to back wasted DT picks? :lol: except with very rare exceptions, rookie DTs are going to be weak. that doesn't mean that they are wasted picks. it just means that they weren't ready to start. we were stuck with both of them starting because edwards went out. should we have had more depth at DT? sure. was it a mistake to give them starting reps this season? maybe for this season it hurt, but there's no telling how much of a positive impact it will have on them heading into the future and their development, which, btw, is what rivera's main concern with them has been. will they succeed in the future? who knows. calling them wasted picks is a bit short sighted but you are angry and wanting places to point the finger so have at it. i just don't know what you were expecting from two rookie 3rd round DTs starting.

oh...and the defense last year let forte do the same thing he did this year. we were down by 17 in the first quarter.... 14 of those points came from forte on their first two drives and before peppers intercepted clausen. defense put the offense behind the 8 ball right away. i wouldn't use that game to talk about how solid the panthers D was because of that first quarter alone. you can look at the bears that day as only having thrown the ball 19 times for 8 completions, 29 yards, and 4 INTs and think that screams success by our defense, but then you have to consider that todd collins was throwing the ball. TODD COLLINS, a 39 year old QB who had only started 3 games since 1997 and had only thrown the ball 155 times in the past decade. yeah...lots of bragging rights come from beating up a QB like that.

you're all angry and stuff, so i don't expect you to think logically or rationally about all of it so have at it. i won't get in the way of your rage anymore.

[rayzor]

that's debatable really. the average 2nd round player is expected to play... one of the reason relatively few QBs are taken in the 2nd round is that if they were expected to play well early they'd be first rounders etc...

When a QB is taken early in the second round, there's a good chance they WILL play early, because if a team is drafting a QB early in the second round, they very well might have at some point in the first, too... just not where they were initially picking.

They may not have the same investment in the player as a top 10 in the first round but there's a good chance that player will start in the very near future... and how near depends on the situation on the team and how the player does in camp.

yeah, agreed about 2nd rounders. i initially said that anything past the 2nd round is usually considered a project and then added "probably including the 2nd round". 2nd round is kind of borderline.

you want anyone you draft to be able to come in and start right away and that is the hope, but you don't draft them intending that they do. you generally look at them as guys who are building blocks who will hopefully at some point be able to start or at least be a significant player. those guys usually take more time than someone taken in the first round or two. if they weren't going to take as much time they would be drafted early.

teams usually don't start rookies drafted later than the 2nd round unless they are forced to.

[MadHatter]

should lead to you being banned...I've heard "were not bad we just play a good 30 minutes on defense", "We just don't have much depth"...Depth? We don't have talent! One decent LB, one good CB, and a solid DE...That is it the rest of the defense can be scraped...Hardy your a rotation guy at best...Our DT's BLOW, our Line Backers BLOW, our secondary BLOW'S, our scheme BLOW'S...Overreacting? NO, look at the talent around the league! Our starters may not crack other teams "depth"... One thing that makes this hard for me is Fox has Denver winning by holding opponents under 13 a game, they were 28th in D last season...Our defense has drastically dropped from last year...The type of fall that the offense would take if you put Jimmy in for Cam...Drastic, scrapped, it looks horrible, it is horrible...If it walk's like a fuging duck, and talk's like a fuging duck then guess what people it's usually a fuging DUCK! We can't stop the run, can't tackle worth a poo, and can't cover besides Gamble, and we don't have a consistent pass rush...Well I guess that mean's our defense blows...Sugar coat that every one I'm waiting for it...I thought Rivera was a defensive guy? No one thought the D would drop this bad...And don't hand me that "well wait till next off season" poo we wasted two early picks on the DT's of the "future"...Does that show you a little something...fug without Cam we have the worst draft in the NFL.

Anyone starting threads about why other posters should be banned......should be banned.

that is all

[PantherPhann89]

I have expected more from Dermott and RR. I thought together they would bring heat on the reg. Even with the injuries, you should still be able to gameplan to the strengths that you have. And we've been beat deep numerous times with our starting CB's. We passed on Vet CB's that would've help to shore up Secondary. I even think that we missed an opportunity when we passed on Curry after Davis went down. If we'd signed him, he'd be starting and gaining experience in the system but with better production than Sheen or Gaither. Cause I don't think Davis will make it back and play for the entire season.

[Carl Spackler]

Anyone starting threads about why other posters should be banned......should be banned.

that is all

Nothing personal, and I don't care if you neg me again, but genuinely asking, do you ever post anything of genuine value, or do you just go around pointing out the flaws in others?

The OP highlighted his reasons for why people shouldn't make excuses for the defense, and some are plausible. Despite the injuries, we've allowed way too many points and have failed to get off the field on key third downs. Some of that is due to poor scheming, but a lot is poor execution of those schemes.

But feel free to tell me how I'm wrong, I'm sure you're itching to. ;)

[panthers55]

Most attention payed to the offense? We drafted Cam and traded for Olsen...We drafted back to back dt's signed one as well, drafted a line backer, and a cb...Thats our whole draft besides Cam, Ziemba and Pilares...

We traded for Olsen, signed Shockey, Nannee, brought in Hangartner, picked up Bell as an undrafted free agent, drafted the number 1 player in the draft at QB, resigned Williams and already had three bowlers like Smith, Gross, Kalil on the team. Add Stewart and you have a real solid group.

Now look at defense where we have Johnson, Anderson and Gamble left after Beason and Davis went down and who else is there?? On offense when Otah went down we had Bell and Ziemba as possible replacements. When Schwartz and Bernadeau had issues, we plugged in Hangartner who was a season vet. When Goodson went on IR we didn't miss a beat.

Who replaced Beason? Connor for a few weeks, then he got hurt and Gaither came in. When Davis got hurt we have a bunch of guys come in who either got hurt themselves or were average at best. Right now the best we have are Senn, Anderson, and Connor. The defensive line has 2 rookies, one second year player and only Johnson as a stud. And look at the secondary. Outside of Gamble we have guys who aren't very good or are still inexperienced.

THe problem is the starters are questionable and the backups are journeymen unlike the offense where you have much better starters and more quality depth up and down.

Yeah we fixed the offense this year and will fix the defense next year.

[Peppermint9030]

Ok im gonna ask a question here and maybe one of you future GM's can answer it for me...

Ray Lewis...The GREAT Ray Lewis the biggest emotional leader in the NFL on defense goes down with a toe injury out for about 3 weeks...

They have the 8-1 49ers coming in...

McClain a no name line backer is Ray's backup...He has 9 tackles they shut down everything the 9ers threw at em. No leadership set back, filled in did his job and moves on...

Were so far away from having plug and play defense which is required in a good defense is it not? You gonna debate that? Our defense has nothing, Beason is a great player...Literally that's all we have.

My OP stated Anderson is ok, Johnson is good (he's not great) and Gamble is good...

To say Terrel and Fua are doing their job is absurd...Is this not a "what have you one for me lately league"? You think McClain was expected to start at any point this season? No, but when Ray went down he made the most of it...

Terrel and Fua are not making the most of it, besides Gamble our whole secondary is getting their shot to prove they deserve it with no pressure, and they can't do it...

That is what I mean by lack of talent...You can't rely on more then half of our defense to fill in for 1 week on these other solid defense's around the league.

The coaching isn't even there to get the most out of these guys, look around the league. Quit being a homer and saying Beason is the main reason. Rayzor you said this D was mediocre at best last year...Was Beason not starting?

[bleys]

Ok im gonna ask a question here and maybe one of you future GM's can answer it for me...

Ray Lewis...The GREAT Ray Lewis the biggest emotional leader in the NFL on defense goes down with a toe injury out for about 3 weeks...

They have the 8-1 49ers coming in...

McClain a no name line backer is Ray's backup...He has 9 tackles they shut down everything the 9ers threw at em. No leadership set back, filled in did his job and moves on...

We so far away from having plug and play defense which is required in a good defense is it not? You gonna debate that? Our defense has nothing, Beason is a great player...Literally that's all we have.

My OP stated Anderson is ok, Johnson is good (he's not great) and Gamble is good...

To say Terrel and Fua are doing their job is absurd...Is this not a "what have you one for me lately league"? You think McClain was expected to start at any point this season? No, but when given the chance he made the most of it...

Terrel and Fua are not making the most of it, besides Gamble our whole secondary is getting their shot to prove they deserve it with no pressure, and they can't do it...

That is what I mean by lack of talent...You can't rely on more then half of our defense to even fill in for 1 week on these other solid defense's around the league.

The coaching isn't even there to get the most out of these guys, look around the league. Quit being a homer and saying Beason is the main reason. Rayzor you said this D was mediocre at best last year...Was Beason not starting?

your question is dumb..

[Peppermint9030]

The whole 3rd round and beyond debate is also retarded...Good teams in this league make the most out of there 3rd round picks...We were like that at one point snaging Jenkins, Rucker, Smith etc...Were not anymore...Why are we all mad about the Edwards pick hes just supposed to be a project.

[Peppermint9030]

We traded for Olsen, signed Shockey, Nannee, brought in Hangartner, picked up Bell as an undrafted free agent, drafted the number 1 player in the draft at QB, resigned Williams and already had three bowlers like Smith, Gross, Kalil on the team. Add Stewart and you have a real solid group.

Now look at defense where we have Johnson, Anderson and Gamble left after Beason and Davis went down and who else is there?? On offense when Otah went down we had Bell and Ziemba as possible replacements. When Schwartz and Bernadeau had issues, we plugged in Hangartner who was a season vet. When Goodson went on IR we didn't miss a beat.

Who replaced Beason? Connor for a few weeks, then he got hurt and Gaither came in. When Davis got hurt we have a bunch of guys come in who either got hurt themselves or were average at best. Right now the best we have are Senn, Anderson, and Connor. The defensive line has 2 rookies, one second year player and only Johnson as a stud. And look at the secondary. Outside of Gamble we have guys who aren't very good or are still inexperienced.

THe problem is the starters are questionable and the backups are journeymen unlike the offense where you have much better starters and more quality depth up and down.

Yeah we fixed the offense this year and will fix the defense next year.

We did draft a line backer...Wilson...He ended up on the practice squad, and got caught with 6 grams of pot.

[rayzor]

Ok im gonna ask a question here and maybe one of you future GM's can answer it for me...

Ray Lewis...The GREAT Ray Lewis the biggest emotional leader in the NFL on defense goes down with a toe injury out for about 3 weeks...

They have the 8-1 49ers coming in...

McClain a no name line backer is Ray's backup...He has 9 tackles they shut down everything the 9ers threw at em. No leadership set back, filled in did his job and moves on...

We so far away from having plug and play defense which is required in a good defense is it not? You gonna debate that? Our defense has nothing, Beason is a great player...Literally that's all we have.

ok...problem here is that the ravens have been running the same system for how long?

of course it's going to be a lot easier for someone to step into a well established system and do ok. going back to teh Mike being the QB of the defense (which most thinking people would consider a fair comparison) look at the pats when brady went out for the year. they had a successful system in place that they had been running for years and a team full of talent, the majority of which had been around for a long time, that allowed them to go ahead and win 12(?) games that year.

very few teams can pull off something like that. missing a starting player on either side of the ball isn't something that teams can usually do without seeing a significant drop off. losing the QB or MLB (or whomever is the voice of the coaches and the established leader on the field) is even tougher.

for a team that is in the situation that the panthers are in where they have such a young team in a brand new system lacking key pieces (largely due to injury) you just can't expect them to some in and play as if nothing happened.

The coaching isn't even there to get the most out of these guys, look around the league. Quit being a homer and saying Beason is the main reason. Rayzor you said this D was mediocre at best last year...Was Beason not starting?

ugh.

reading comprehension is not your strong suit, esp. when you're just running on emotion.

when did i say that losing beason was the main reason?

it's a major factor, just like all of the other things that happened.

yes, beason was starting last year and they were mediocre. we would have a winning record if we had a mediocre defense right now, which we don't because of all the things working against it this year.

no...coaching is not getting the best out of these guys. you want to know why? or is it just easier for you to throw out a simple but very incomplete and narrow-minded answer like "these guys just suck!!!!!".

if you want to know the real reason why...

young and relatively inexperienced team

+

brand new system

+

lack of offseason to prepare

+

key ingredients to the scheme missing (beason, TD, edwards) and replaced by inferior (and/or inexperienced @ DT) talent

=

underachieving defense and problems with the coaching staff getting the most out of their team.

again, the good thing is that most of those issues will be fixed heading into next year.

also, as has been pointed out, they have another year to add to the defense. they spent more resources upgrading the offense than defense because the offense needed the most work. this coming offseason they can/will fix the defense.

btw...i'm not going to address your assessment of charles johnson or chris gamble. i figure others will tear you up enough on that.