Cam hasn't taken a step back

[antame]

You owned me? You took one part of my paragraph that said:

There are three parts in there. Field position, defensive takeaways, and special teams and defensive touchdowns.

You took one of those things and said basically "we are slightly below average in that but it is really close." But those 95 yards are also 95 yards that could get potentially tacked on to YPP. That is what I was referring to. 1 yard doesn't seem like much but it adds up over time.

You might think that it is not a big deal but in terms of YPP don't you think it is ironic that most teams leading in YPP also in the top half lead the league in starting field position?

GB YPP rank: 1 Field position rank: 4

Detroit YPP rank: 2 Field position rank: 5th

Chicago YPP rank: 3 Field position rank: 18th (7 non-offensive TDs)

SF YPP rank: 4 Field position rank: 1

Baltimore: YPP rank: 5 Field position rank: 10th

NY Jets YPP rank: 6th Field position rank: 6th

Cincy YPP rank: 7th Field position rank: 3rd

New Orleans YPP rank: 8th Field position rank 15th

Houston YPP rank: 9th Field position rank: 2nd

New England YPP rank: 10th Field position rank: 21st (Tom Brady)

Everyone of them are in the top ten in starting field position except the one with abnormally inflated YPP because of non-offensive TDs and the two best QBs not named Aaron Rodgers in all of football.

Just a strange coincidence??

The difference may seem small but that adds up over 16 games and is a huge disadvantage.

Interesting discussion and enjoying following it. Do you suppose the flip side of that might be YPP influences field position?

[teeray]

What's a YPP rank?

Wait till you see where all those teams "crappy" defenses are ranked in "ypp rank allowed"

Tell him jtgreensboro. You know this now;)

Hey if I can make one guy get it. I'm a happy camper.

PS: Yes and those 95 yards would have improved our offense's starting field position by a whopping: 0.5%. You think the fact we're missing 8 inches on our drives is what's making our offense inefficient? You are getting close Teeray. Really close. Don't give up. Guess who's really getting screwed over by who in starting defending field position: Panthers "ypp rank allowed" = 30th.

I'm not sure what you are talking about :confused:

And I don't know why you keep linking you post from pantherstalk. I read it already. Same poo you have been spouting all over these pages.

Plus I am still not sure where you think your gotcha moment is with field position. There were three different things I mentioned in my post. You took one of them and think that you proving that we have had below average field position somehow changes things.

When you rank near the bottom in field position, defensive turnovers, and don't get defensive or special teams TDs, your YPP is going to be negatively effected when compared against the rest of the league.

Do you think it is a coincidence that every team in the top 10 in YPP has at minimum 3 defensive or special teams touchdowns and all but 3 have starting field position ranked in the top 10??

[teeray]

Interesting discussion and enjoying following it. Do you suppose the flip side of that might be YPP influences field position?

No. Because generally speaking offensive starting field position is dictated by defense and special teams.

As it pertains to YPP even if your offense flips the field position and punts unless the defense gets a three and out or a turnover it will likely have a negative effect on your YPP.

For example, if your offense gets the ball at the 20 yard line, drives the ball 30 yards to midfield, and then punts (lets assume the net punting average is 40 yards) giving the opposing offense the ball on the 10 yard line. Even if the other team drives the ball 10 yards and punts for a net of 40 yards the offense is now has a net loss of 10 yards to score a TD. It is extra yardage that it has to make up to get a TD. So basically whatever yardage the defense gives up the offense has to regain in addition to what they already gained in terms of total yardage to score a TD.

I'm not sure if I am articulating that as well as I would like because it is late (or early :)) But the basic gist is that defense and special teams will be the most likely unit to effect field position. Even if the offense flips the field position the defense needs to get an early stop or a turnover or else it will likely have a negative effect on your teams offensive YPP.

And just glancing at the stats there doesn't seem to be a correlation between teams that have a high yards per drive stat having better starting offensive field position than other teams. It mostly depends on defense and special teams.

[TrueDat]

I'm not sure what you are talking about :confused:

And I don't know why you keep linking you post from pantherstalk. I read it already. Same poo you have been spouting all over these pages.

Plus I am still not sure where you think your gotcha moment is with field position. There were three different things I mentioned in my post. You took one of them and think that you proving that we have had below average field position somehow changes things.

When you rank near the bottom in field position, defensive turnovers, and don't get defensive or special teams TDs, your YPP is going to be negatively effected when compared against the rest of the league.

Do you think it is a coincidence that every team in the top 10 in YPP has at minimum 3 defensive or special teams touchdowns and all but 3 have starting field position ranked in the top 10??

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what "ypp" is and show me you understand it. Otherwise this is pointless. I didn't link to any post about YPP. I was showing you even jt got what it means.

And everything you just said is wrong. I just proved to you a second ago starting field position was less than 1% different than any other team therefore less than 1%. So it's not field position that's impacting scoring efficiency.

You keep looking at rankings and not value.

And it's certainly not takeaways. We get .3 less takeaways compared to an average offense. But we do get them. We still get 1.3 per game. So this IMPROVES efficiency and starting field position tremendously.

So who is it, that's responsible for our inefficiency?

PS: I know you are not sure. You still haven't quiet got it yet. Which is why I said, don't give up. You are really close. I mean that, not making fun.

[chef17]

JT said the Colts are 30th in scoring because when you go to nfl.com and click on team scoring they are 30th. Don't need YPP to see that.

[TrueDat]

JT said the Colts are 30th in scoring because when you go to nfl.com and click on team scoring they are 30th. Don't need YPP to see that.

He's still exactly right. They are 30th in scoring. Because that's what ypp measures. How good you are in scoring. Not how many yards you get. Not how many points you get. But exactly what he said.

And that's what their offensive efficiency ratio is(YPP): 30th.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/scoring-offense-category

Those things change every single game depending on the type of offense, not so much defenses you face. Your ability generally doesn't.

He said the most important aspect about a team. How good your total offense is in scoring or how efficient they are at it.

Scoring Ability and Offensive Efficiency. Which is why it is the most important stat. It measures a team's total offense's ability to score points.

[chef17]

He's still exactly right. They are 30th in scoring. Because that's what ypp measures. How good you are in scoring. Not how many yards you get. Not how many points you get. But exactly what he said.

And that's what their offensive efficiency ratio is(YPP): 30th.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/scoring-offense-category

Those things change every single game depending on the type of offense, not so much defenses you face. Your ability generally doesn't.

He said the most important aspect about a team. How good your total offense is in scoring or how efficient they are at it.

Scoring Ability and Offensive Efficiency. Which is why it is the most important stat. It measures a team's total offense's ability to score points.

So why are we 18th in scoring and 25th in YPP if they measure the same thing?

[TrueDat]

So why are we 18th in scoring and 25th in YPP if they measure the same thing?

Because that's not scoring. He said they are 30th in scoring. He's talking about their scoring ability. That's points scored per game. This measures how many points you and the other team put up(it includes your defense's overall affect, and the other team too).

YPP measures points scored per yard. This measures your ability. It tracks only the part of your team responsible for scoring: offense, special teams offense, takeaways and the occasional defensive score. And it tracks your actual offense's inefficiency. If they are inefficient, this number will be below average(roughly 15.4).

So we are 19th in points scored.

We are 25th in our ability to score points. Our total offense's efficiency. What's making our high yardage offense go from average points scored to 19th? Our 25th ranked inefficient scoring ability.

That's what I keep telling you. YPP is even better than PPG. PPG only measures points scored. Half of that has to do with the other team's offense.

[Brandon]

Why are you using manufactured stats that aren't reliable? There are way too many variables in what effects the YPP method.

[TrueDat]

Why are you using manufactured stats that aren't reliable? There are way too many variables in what effects the YPP method.

Why do you keep saying stupid poo about things you do not understand?

[TrueDat]

Oh and chef...

If you wanted to know how truly bad we are at it, you could also figure it out by the drop in rankings....from 6th in yards to 19th in points scored. And that would make us by far the most inefficient offense in the league. 13 ranks.

Indianapolis matches up. They are bad in yards. Bad in scoring. Bad in efficiency. This is normal for a bad offense.

We are 5th in yards. Bad in scoring 25th. Worse in efficiency: 25th. This is abnormal. This is completely screwed up.

This must mean we are one of the most inefficient teams in the history of the NFL. Ok maybe not that bad. But it's gotta be some kind of record. Pittsburg's offense is similarly inefficient but they have a good excuse.

They are 9th in yards. 10th in points scored. 17th in efficiency.

So their inefficiency is dragging them down slightly. From 9th to 10th. But they have a good reason: worst turnover margin in the league 32nd. Ben is throwing a ton of picks, but he's also winning his 4th quarter games.

We, oth, our turnover margin is -0.5. It was -0.4 last week And that's after a game where our defense got us 3 takeaways. It's dropped. lol. No other team in the league does it quite like this. Not one. Not even Indianapolis. It's one thing to be a bad offense. It's another to be an incapable offense.

Remember what this guy said about offensive efficiency and scoring ability?

Keep in mind that these measures are much more than just intellectual exercises by stat geeks far removed from the sidelines. Proficiency in these indicators is critical to team success: teams that win the Scoreability-Bendability battle of efficiency are 83-20 (.806) through Week 7, including an incredible 23-3 in the last two weeks (.885).

In other words, smart, efficient teams win football games. Dumb, inefficient teams lose football games. (We track the Correlation to Victory of these and many other stats at CHFF Insider.)

Harbaugh's 49ers are 5-1 and the surprise story of 2011 because they are the smartest, most efficient in football.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/10/26/49ers.coaching/index.html#ixzz1eWKxBVwU

So we're the stupidest;) offense in the league. And there is no fix for stupidity. A good defense can't fix offensive stupidity. Or if you have stupid teachers. Makes you dumber. Like listening to guys who don't understand stats post them all day long(makes the whole place dumber). Only learning efficiency, or ability, makes you smarter. Brain YPP;)

[Shaqil915]

I agree with everything TrueDat said...

/trolloff

[mav1234]

Remember what this guy said about offensive efficiency and scoring ability?

yarh he said this:

The highly prolific Patriots are wasting a lot of yards, leaving a lot of points on the field and failing to generate points from units other than the offense -- especially when compared with the 49ers.

...

(Note: Scoreability counts ALL points, not just those generated by the offense. The scoreboard does not care how those points get there, only that they do. Well-coached teams score points as many ways as possible. Scoreabilty rewards teams for proficiency in all phases of the game; Bendability applies the same rules to defense.)

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/10/26/49ers.coaching/index.html#ixzz1eXXEtcWP

While one would be correct in saying something like, "The Patriots are not scoring as efficiently as the 49ers," plenty of people would flat out disagree if someone took the leap to say, "The Patriots offense is not as good as the 49ers offense." There's a big difference there. S'all any of us have ever tried to say.

[teeray]

I am not going to go through this charade again with PFFL. There are several reasons why our YPP ranking is so bad and I have given numerous examples of such. I view it as a team efficiency stat. If a guy cannot see how a defense that ranks dead last in yards per drive, TDs per drive, points per drive, punts forced (31st), and three and outs doesn't effect offensive YPP in an extreme manner I can't help them.

You will never understand that a punt is more punitive for our YPP than a team like the NYJ because of our defense is so porous that even if our offense flips the field we likely will still get pinned back again because our defense is giving up 37.17 yards per drive (worst in the league) or get the ball on the 20 after a score. Especially since our offense is amongst the best in the league in Yards per drive and Offensive Success Rate (three and outs). Our offense being good in those areas actually hurts our YPP because our defense is so pooty and has a hard time keeping field position when we flip it.

It isn't just one thing. It is a conglomerate of things that add up and eventually devastate your YPP. When you suck at defense and your special teams is bad, your YPP is going to be destroyed.

And nobody ever said our offense was perfect. We have turn the ball over too much (especially the last two games) and we have had long drives that haven't ended in points either by way of missed field goals or missed opportunities late in the game.

It is a conglomerate of every facet of the game. That is been my point of this entire argument form day one. It isn't offensive efficiency because it is heavily influenced by all three facets of the game.

And I think YPP is a good stat and generally a good measure of team success. Teams with goof YPP are generally very successful. That is because they are performing at a high level as a team. But great offenses can mask average defenses and great defenses can mask average offenses (see NYJ or Chicago) when it comes to YPP.

So in my opinion it isn't an accurate reflectional or your "QB offensive unit" and therefore isn't an offensive efficiency model.