Cam hasn't taken a step back

[Shufdog]

Why are y'all doing this?????

[mav1234]

because I'm bored at work.

[TheOracle]

Please LEARN TO THINK people.

Cam Newton's problem is simple. He's a rookie, playing in his first NFL season. No one has "caught up to" Cam. He's suffering from mental and physical fatigue. It's a long season, and he has predictably hit a rookie wall since counting the Preseason, he's already played more games than he played last year in college, and he still has six games left.

His arm was fresh at the beginning of the year, and idiots like Chud and Rivera didn't PACE Newton's development. He came out of the gate averaging around 40 passes per game. I don't care how big he is or how strong his arm is, anyone throwing the ball as much as he did right out of the gate is going to eventually wear down. Add to that all of the rushing yards he has, and he's starting to feel it.

THE LAPSES IN MECHANICS is a clear indicator of mental and arm fatigue!

Next season, he won't overdo it like they overexerted him early this year. Cincy progressed Dalton slowly in the amount of throws he was limited to early, so now he can throw the ball 47 times in a game without losing his mechanics like Cam is doing, interceptions aside.

Like I've said all year. One of the luxuries Cincy has is experienced coaching, which Cam doesn't. He came out great, but they still overdid it early with the amount of passes he was throwing.

He should have been throwing no more than 30 times every game all season, with DeAngelo and Stewart in the back field. They should've gotten 30 rushes a game. Had they done that, the Panthers would be around .500 right now, and Cam would still be "physically" fresh, and in a better state of mind mentally with a better record.

[AceMan]

You know, he's just gonna keep ignoring this point

I have been asking this question for literally 24 hours and haven't gotten a response from PFFL/Truedat.

:hand:

PFFL is so sad and easy to figure out. If he's wrong, instead of admitting it, he'll just ignore it and re-hash his other points over and over until he gets the last word.

In another thread, Decleater ranted on and on abowt how The Golden Calf of Bristol is better than Cam, better person, etc. As soon as I posted stats he couldn't refute, he just decided to ignore it and talk about how "different" The Golden Calf of Bristol is as a QB and how everyone hates him because of it.

He won't answer

[rayzor]

because I'm bored at work.

try picking on decleator instead.

[mav1234]

Whether you are right or not TheOracle, the direction this offense is taking is pass-first. At our best, I would not expect much better than a 55% pass 45% run ratio. That's just how Chud is.

Over and over our coaches have said this will be a pass first offense. They've said they want to force Cam to do the heavy lifting this year so in the future they can lean on him, instead of turning to him in year 3 and after he has been protected with a great run game. I dunno if they're being smart there, but that's the opinion.

FWIW, I think this offense needs to lean on our backs a bit more because they are two of our best offensive playmakers. Regardless of if it fits the system or not that would be the best bet for this team as a whole to find a way to incorporate them a bit more I think.

'Course, maybe Rivera/Chud aren't doing what is best for the team this year, but what they think will be best for the team in the future.

try picking on decleator instead.

I did, that got boring fast. "The Golden Calf of Bristol The Golden Calf of Bristol! The Golden Calf of Bristol! The Golden Calf of Bristol!!! 40 passes in a game isn't enough to get in a rhythm. did you see him at Florida!??!!! boy can that boy throw!!!"

[rayzor]

Whether you are right or not TheOracle, the direction this offense is taking is pass-first. At our best, I would not expect much better than a 55% pass 45% run ratio. That's just how Chud is.

Over and over our coaches have said this will be a pass first offense. They've said they want to force Cam to do the heavy lifting this year so in the future they can lean on him, instead of turning to him in year 3 and after he has been protected with a great run game. I dunno if they're being smart there, but that's the opinion.

FWIW, I think this offense needs to lean on our backs a bit more because they are two of our best offensive playmakers. Regardless of if it fits the system or not that would be the best bet for this team as a whole to find a way to incorporate them a bit more I think.

'Course, maybe Rivera/Chud aren't doing what is best for the team this year, but what they think will be best for the team in the future.

i think it's the latter.

if you plan on having the team long term be a pass heavy team in a pass heavy league, then why put your QB into any other type situation? at least that's probably the thinking they have. what people see when they read that, though, is that the panthers coaching staff is "sacrificing" the season so to develop newton. that isn't the case, though. i think they really believe in what they are doing and that it can win games and honestly, the offense has put us in good position to win pretty much every game this year with the exception of the titans game.

going forward it can only get better, and it will.

I did, that got boring fast. "The Golden Calf of Bristol The Golden Calf of Bristol! The Golden Calf of Bristol! The Golden Calf of Bristol!!! 40 passes in a game isn't enough to get in a rhythm. did you see him at Florida!??!!! boy can that boy throw!!!"

both are boring because they keep on saying the same thing over and over and over. pffl just uses more words and bolds a few of them, but he really doesn't say anything different.

[TrueDat]

so PFFL, you would say that yesterday our offense was only slightly less efficient than Green Bay has been on average all season?

our total scoring offense just so we are clear or out total offense's efficiency: yes. It was absolutely. We were more efficient than your average team, thanks to our special teams and defensive takeaways, but not more efficient than the Lions. But it does not mean what Teeray thinks it means when you and him use it in your arguments and what everybody else typically thinks of. That doesn't mean our offense that everybody refers to, the QB's offensive unit, was more efficient.

Using YPP:

1. The way yards per point is tracked statistically, when your QB's offensive unit gets 0 help and are the only ones scoring, YPP measures their scoring efficiency. The best it can do is 100% efficiency. In reality it always gets some help(they start at the 20 yard line minimum so about 11.4 ypp or about 137% efficiency).

2. The moment special teams starts helping with field position, YPP measures the help its getting by way of field position.

3. The moment our special teams scores a kick-off return, it becomes part of our "scoring" offense. It added a perfect efficiency ratio of 100%(100 yards for 7 points...no need to add the yards. It was a perfect drive. So just add the points. You can also think of it as our "scoring offense 'getting 100 yards worth of field position).

4 Now YPP is measuring our total scoring offense efficiency which also includes a score from our special teams. It's gotta be really high right about now. We're rolling baby. 24-14 and our offense only moved 100 yards.

5. Lions get the ball, and defense gets a turnover.

6. Our scoring offense efficiency now includes help by way of a turnover from the defense.

7 Offense is cruising down the field and because of good field position our "scoring offense's" efficiency is still high.

8...Cam Newton throws a pick and gets stopped.....boom. YPP efficiency took a major blow. Now all of those offensive yards still get counted, but without the points, we became less efficient. (we made a big mistake).

Etc....Does this make sense?

If our offense gets no help you can use YPP to measure the "actual" offense's own efficiency ratio. When someone else steps in and helps scores, it's no longer a measurement of just our QB's boys, it's a measurement of how much our other guys are making them in addition to whatever they're doing. Or our scoring offense's efficiency.

So against the Lions, if you really wanted to find out out our QB's boys actual efficiency, or inefficiency, it's by taking only the points scored by them and either from 0, or use average starting field position. Any points off of a turnover drive is considered help! So I know for fact when you figure out their efficiency, it's not going to be good, because when you throw 4 interceptions common sense tells you all those yards make you inefficient.

So what made us efficient was the defense' turnovers and special teams score: you know the part you guys keep saying that it didn't get any help from.

[TrueDat]

:hand:

PFFL is so sad and easy to figure out. If he's wrong, instead of admitting it, he'll just ignore it and re-hash his other points over and over until he gets the last word.

In another thread, Decleater ranted on and on abowt how The Golden Calf of Bristol is better than Cam, better person, etc. As soon as I posted stats he couldn't refute, he just decided to ignore it and talk about how "different" The Golden Calf of Bristol is as a QB and how everyone hates him because of it.

He won't answer

What exactly did you refute and I ignored? I'm not Decleater and I wasn't keeping track with your conversation with him. You're not the only one I'm talking to. And if you're talking about your idea of YPP, like I told Teeray go read about it, come back and talk to me when you learn what it is and how to use it.

I didn't ignore anything yesterday. I just went and wrote it out so you can go and study it when you keep making a bunch of rehashed argument you copy from others that were wrong to begin with.

And I'm not sure what your idea of evidence is because all I've ran into is a bunch of dudes who try to tell me an apple's not a fruit Aka: A stat that tracks offensive efficiency is not a stat that tracks offensive efficiency.

I think I posted enough evidence and wrote enough essays on my knowledge on the topic. You just keep talking like you're some authority on it when the fact is I'm the first person that brought it up here and I can tell how little you know about it yet you pretend like you know what it is. So like I said, go snap out of it, read about it, get edumacated and come back to me when you figure it all out

[teeray]

our total scoring offense just so we are clear or out total offense's efficiency: yes. It was absolutely. We were more efficient than your average team, thanks to our special teams and defensive takeaways, but not more efficient than the Lions. But it does not mean what Teeray thinks it means when you and him use it in your arguments and what everybody else typically thinks of. That doesn't mean our offense that everybody refers to, the QB's offensive unit, was more efficient.

1) You could have stopped there no one said it was better than the Lions. Nobody said our offense outplayed the Lions.

2) So you are saying that offensive YPP is more about team efficiency and is influenced by all three phases so it shouldn't be used to evaluate an offense's true play. Excuse me, the QB's offensive unit (which is the way you have been using it in the past so this represents a major shift in your argument)

Using YPP:

1. The way yards per point is tracked statistically, when your QB's offensive unit gets 0 help and are the only ones scoring, YPP measures their scoring efficiency. The best it can do is 100% efficiency. In reality it always gets some help(they start at the 20 yard line minimum so about 11.4 ypp or about 137% efficiency).

2. The moment special teams starts helping with field position, YPP measures the help its getting by way of field position.

3. The moment our special teams scores a kick-off return, it becomes part of our "scoring" offense. It added a perfect efficiency ratio of 100%(100 yards for 7 points...no need to add the yards. It was a perfect drive. So just add the points. You can also think of it as our "scoring offense 'getting 100 yards worth of field position).

4 Now YPP is measuring our total scoring offense efficiency which also includes a score from our special teams. It's gotta be really high right about now. We're rolling baby. 24-14 and our offense only moved 100 yards.

5. Lions get the ball, and defense gets a turnover.

6. Our scoring offense efficiency now includes help by way of a turnover from the defense.

7 Offense is cruising down the field and because of good field position our "scoring offense's" efficiency is still high.

8...Cam Newton throws a pick and gets stopped.....boom. YPP efficiency took a major blow. Now all of those offensive yards still get counted, but without the points, we became less efficient. (we made a big mistake).

Etc....Does this make sense?

False. Kind of. I depends on when Cam throws the pick. If it is in the first three downs it barely registers on the YPP. If he throws a pick on the first play it doesn't register at all. The only way a turnover or being stopped greatly hurts YPP is if the offense accumulates a chunk of yardage first. 3 and outs and turnovers before getting a first down hardly even effect YPP. That is part of the reason our YPP was so high against the Lions. Most of Cam's picks came early in drives and therefore didn't hurt our YPP despite the fact that the clearly hurt our true efficiency.

And in terms of 14.2 being 100% efficiency (assuming the point after is made) is also not accurate. Or at least I disagree with your wording. 14.2 is the minimum you can score on a TD drive. I don't tend to look at things as 100% when it is actually the worst score you can have on a TD drive. 100% efficiency in my mind would be .142 which would be a 1 yard TD drive. Since lower is better that actually would be 100% efficiency as it pertains to YPP. 14.2 is actually the worst you can do on a TD drive, although I think anyone would agree that generally speaking a 99 yard TD requires a lot more efficiency than a 1 yard TD drive. But in YPP it is reversed.

By your measure or wording of 14.2 being 100% efficiency a 1 yard TD would be 1,000% efficiency!! That doesn't make sense for a 1 yard drive to be 100x more valuable than a 99 yard drive.

That is why it is a team stat and not an offensive stat. Defense and special teams can reward or harm offensive YPP and it is a big reason our YPP isn't better.

If our offense gets no help you can use YPP to measure the "actual" offense's own efficiency ratio. When someone else steps in and helps scores, it's no longer a measurement of just our QB's boys, it's a measurement of how much our other guys are making them in addition to whatever they're doing. Or our scoring offense's efficiency.

So against the Lions, if you really wanted to find out out our QB's boys actual efficiency, or inefficiency, it's by taking only the points scored by them and either from 0, or use average starting field position. Any points off of a turnover drive is considered help! So I know for fact when you figure out their efficiency, it's not going to be good, because when you throw 4 interceptions common sense tells you all those yards make you inefficient.

So what made us efficient was the defense' turnovers and special teams score: you know the part you guys keep saying that it didn't get any help from.

You saying that the offensive YPP cannot be hurt by our defense and special teams is simply not true because when you rank these teams against the rest of the NFL it inflates and deflates your ranking. If other teams are getting help from their defense and special teams and your team is abnormally bad in those areas it negatively effects your YPP against the rest of the league. That is how rankings work. That is why it is accurate to say that our defense and special teams has put our YPP in an unfavorable position. It goes back to the old adage "If your aren't helping you are hurting" When your defense and special teams is abysmal it prevents you from being able to inflate YPP and it hurts you when ranked against the league. You are at an unfair disadvantage because other teams are receiving bonuses that you are not.

When you rank near the bottom in starting field position, your YPP will be hurt as it compares to the rest of the league. You have to travel more yards to score plus it decreases the likelihood of scoring at all. If your defense ranks at the bottom in takeaways it effects you YPP because you lose gained field position that other teams are getting. When you rank near the bottom in defensive and special teams touchdowns again it negatively effects how your YPP ranks across the league because you don't get that inflation. Therefore your rankings suffer.

That is why it isn't valuable for evaluating offenses. There are too many other mitigating factors that have no bearing on your 'QB offensive unit" that can severely punish your YPP As it compares to the rest of the league So when someone say our offensive YPP ranks near the bottom of the league it doesn't mean much to me because 90% of the other team's offense are getting benefits that we are not. Therefore, in my eyes it isn't truly representative of our "QB offensive unit's" performance as it compares to the rest of the league.

[TrueDat]

1) You could have stopped there no one said it was better than the Lions. Nobody said our offense outplayed the Lions.

2) So you are saying that offensive YPP is more about team efficiency and is influenced by all three phases so it shouldn't be used to evaluate an offense's true play. Excuse me, the QB's offensive unit (which is the way you have been using it in the past so this represents a major shift in your argument)

False. Kind of. I depends on when Cam throws the pick. If it is in the first three downs it barely registers on the YPP. If he throws a pick on the first play it doesn't register at all. The only way a turnover or being stopped greatly hurts YPP is if the offense accumulates a chunk of yardage first. 3 and outs and turnovers before getting a first down hardly even effect YPP. That is part of the reason our YPP was so high against the Lions. Most of Cam's picks came early in drives and therefore didn't hurt our YPP despite the fact that the clearly hurt our true efficiency.

And in terms of 14.2 being 100% efficiency (assuming the point after is made) is also not accurate. Or at least I disagree with your wording. 14.2 is the minimum you can score on a TD drive. I don't tend to look at things as 100% when it is actually the worst score you can have on a TD drive. 100% efficiency in my mind would be .142 which would be a 1 yard TD drive. Since lower is better that actually would be 100% efficiency as it pertains to YPP. 14.2 is actually the worst you can do on a TD drive, although I think anyone would agree that generally speaking a 99 yard TD requires a lot more efficiency than a 1 yard TD drive. But in YPP it is reversed. That is why it is a team stat and not an offensive stat. Defense and special teams can reward or harm offensive YPP and it is a big reason our YPP isn't better.

You saying that the offensive YPP cannot be hurt by our defense and special teams is simply not true because when you rank these teams against the rest of the NFL it inflates and deflates your ranking. If other teams are getting help from their defense and special teams and your team is abnormally bad in those areas it negatively effects your YPP against the rest of the league. That is how rankings work. That is why it is accurate to say that our defense and special teams has put our YPP in an unfavorable position. It goes back to the old adage "If your aren't helping you are hurting" When your defense and special teams is abysmal it prevents you from being able to inflate YPP and it hurts you when ranked against the league. You are at an unfair disadvantage because other teams are receiving bonuses that you are not.

When you rank near the bottom in starting field position, you YPP will be hurt as it compares to the rest of the league. You have to travel more yards to score plus it decreases the likelihood of scoring at all. If your defense ranks at the bottom in takeaways it effects you YPP because you lose gained field position that other teams are getting. When you rank near the bottom in defensive and special teams touchdowns again it negatively effects how your YPP ranks across the league because you don't get that inflation. Therefore your rankings suffer.

That is why it isn't valuable for evaluating offenses. There are too many other mitigating factors that have no bearing on you 'QB offensive unit" that can severely punish your YPP As it compares to the rest of the league

No Teeray it doesn't actually represent a major shift in my argument. It represents me trying to establish what the difference is between your offense, total offense and scoring offense in your mind.

You haven't responded to my request of posting even 3 simple definitions:

define offense

total offense

scoring offense

You also continue to show incredibly poor logic in using statistics. 14.2 is not the minimum. It's the maximum for any one side of your team. You have no logistics in you. 7 points is the maximum you can get for 100 yards. What you are describing with your logic is being able to trade in 100 yards for more than 7 points. It's impossible. It's the highest you can score. The only way you can increase your efficiency over 100% is with help from some other side of your team so you can go "down" in yards.

And also it's not 14.2. Again you have NO LOGIC. 14.2 includes 2 teams, PAT unit and offense. For any one unit it's 6 points for 100 yards. or 16.67. You can average the two numbers and come up with 15.4

Which is also the average. http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-point

See the average offenses:

14: 15.6

15: 16.0

16;16.0

See how my logic matches with REALITY and yours is just poo you make up?

That's why YPP is counter-intuitive for people like you. For the love of God stop arguing about things you have NO clue what they mean.

That's where YPP starts for an average offense. Your QB's offense efficiency starts at the 20 yard line. So for them and the PAT unit they will register 11.4 ypp if they score a touchdown. Compared to the average they will be 16/11.4 = 140% efficiency. This would easily put them on track for a winning record.

So every time the special teams or defense shortens their field position, their efficiency goes up. Likewise if they get STOPPED after driving 60 yards...they get nothing. The yards add up. If they drive the 80 on the next drive, they get 7 points for 140 yards. Their efficiency drops to 20.0. Losing offense.

And that's exactly what happened against the Lions. Our special team, Defense got the offense a lot of freaking help.

[dimbee]

Good god, this thread is unbearable now

[rayzor]

Good god, this thread is unbearable now

you could put it out of it's misery, but the same thing will happen to every thread that pffl enters and he'll keep on entering them until you guys figure out how to keep him out of the huddle.

[CRA]

And that's exactly what happened against the Lions. Our special team, Defense got the offense a lot of freaking help.

Giving up 7 TDs is NOT a lot of help.....1 was off a turnover. They are the wettest of wet paper bags.