Should Tebow success get under Cam's skin

[BBQ&Beer]

First. I post here cause it's fun to see you guys call people stupid, trolls and tell them they don't know why they are talking about only for it turn out the complete opposite.

Really? That's your idea of fun, cherry picking stats to win web points because people were mean to you?

[TrueDat]

Jake Delhomme helped us go 1-7 in 2004 losing several close games and in 2007 9 of his 11 INTs came in the 4th quarter. 7 of those I believe came on the last drive.

Was he clutch??

You mean the year after he got us to a Super Bowl for being clutch?

Are you talking about the guy who got us to a Super Bowl his first year as a starter with the Panthers? The guy who lead the team called the Cardiac Cats to a double over time win in St. Louis en route to a Superbowl? The guy who set the record for the longest play from scrimmage playing against Tom Brady, a 85 yard touchdown pass in a Super Bowl...and it wasn't to Steve Smith, but to Muhammad? The guy who set the record for wiping off the largest 4th quarter deficit in a Super Bowl? Those are the type of records that actually mean something. Because they are being set in a damn Super Bowl. The guy who is either tied or has more comeback winning games than some of the greats like Tom Brady and Bret Farve? The guy who made the playoffs 3 times with the Panthers? The guy who played in two NFC Championship games with the Panthers? The guy with a winning playoff record?

Is that who you keep comparing Mr. 68.0 to? Why? You wanna make Newton look bad or what?

Why are you even mentioning Cam Newton and Jake Delhomme in the same sentence right now? When Cam Newton has a winning season, let alone do half the meaningful poo Delhomme did, then you can compare them. When he wins more comeback games than losing, then you can say he is actually clutch. Right now he started off by not being clutch and losing, and by being a bad game manager who doesn't have the basics down. Delhomme knew the basics and had them down pat for the most part. He didn't play outside his limits, and the coach didn't make him. Unlike what's going on here. Both the OC and Newton are playing outside their limits.

End of story. There's no comparison.

PS: And why do I post? This is a public Panthers forum isn't it?

[mav1234]

First. I post here cause it's fun to see you guys call people stupid, trolls and tell them they don't know why they are talking about only for it to turn out the complete opposite

Second I understand all of that. I am well aware of the fact he's a rookie and most teams with rookie QB's lose because of that reason. You don't.

Most teams with rookies don't win because of them. Some win in spite of them, some win because of them, sure, but most of the time they are not asked to do a ton. We're asking Cam to do a ton.

Saints, Bears and Falcons... I was more referring to the defense giving up 4th quarter leads to the Cardinals, Saints, and Falcons, and 3rd quarter leads to the Packers and Vikings.

1) the Bears

In this particular game, we were tied at 10 and special teams gave up a 73 yard return which allowed an easy TD. Then, the special teams allowed a 70 yard punt return. Note, I am not saying it's all on our defense - it's not. It's typically also our terrible special teams! So we were down 24 to 10. Cam got us to 23 to 24... Then, special teams missed a fg that could have taken the lead. Then defense gave in and instead of being down by 1 we were down by 4. When we were still within 4, defense gave up a TD.

Now, against the Bears it's a good idea to keep in mind we had a blocked field goal and a missed FG. The difference in the game? 5 points.

2) The Falcons

Against the Falcons we had a 4th quarter lead, the defense gave up that lead before we had a turnover. Cam participated in this loss, but then again, we were still leading heading into the 4th and the defense gave that lead up before the turnover in the 4th quarter.

3) Saints

lol, yes, he didn't manage the clock perfectly (though who knows how that game goes if Naanee's catch isn't reversed)... as you point out our coach screwed the pooch in this game as well. Amusingly enough, our coach isn't named Cam Newton, yet you want to blame Cam... Ok. We never should have had to worry about the clock. Our defense allowed an 89 yard drive for a TD. Despite the fact Cam gave up a TD early on, he brought the team back. But our defense couldn't hold the Saints when it mattered most.

It's not just the defense. It's special teams. It's coaching. At times, it's the offense. But our defense and special teams are playing far worse than our offense... EVERYONE Knows that. Why do you think Rivera called the team out after a game saying others had to play up to the level Cam is playing??

[TrueDat]

Most teams with rookies don't win because of them. Some win in spite of them, some win because of them, sure, but most of the time they are not asked to do a ton. We're asking Cam to do a ton.

Saints, Bears and Falcons... I was more referring to the defense giving up 4th quarter leads to the Cardinals, Saints, and Falcons, and 3rd quarter leads to the Packers and Vikings.

1) the Bears

In this particular game, we were tied at 10 and special teams gave up a 73 yard return which allowed an easy TD. Then, the special teams allowed a 70 yard punt return. Note, I am not saying it's all on our defense - it's not. It's typically also our terrible special teams! So we were down 24 to 10. Cam got us to 23 to 24... Then, special teams missed a fg that could have taken the lead. Then defense gave in and instead of being down by 1 we were down by 4. When we were still within 4, defense gave up a TD.

Now, against the Bears it's a good idea to keep in mind we had a blocked field goal and a missed FG. The difference in the game? 5 points.

2) The Falcons

Against the Falcons we had a 4th quarter lead, the defense gave up that lead before we had a turnover. Cam participated in this loss, but then again, we were still leading heading into the 4th and the defense gave that lead up before the turnover in the 4th quarter.

3) Saints

lol, yes, he didn't manage the clock perfectly (though who knows how that game goes if Naanee's catch isn't reversed)... as you point out our coach screwed the pooch in this game as well. Amusingly enough, our coach isn't named Cam Newton, yet you want to blame Cam... Ok. We never should have had to worry about the clock. Our defense allowed an 89 yard drive for a TD. Despite the fact Cam gave up a TD early on, he brought the team back. But our defense couldn't hold the Saints when it mattered most.

Dude you keep ignoring the importance of points off of our rookie's turnover. That's what's costing us the leads in the first place. Not the defense giving them up. Look around the NFL. ALL DEFENSES give up points when the offense turns over the ball in critical situation. They stop them sometimes. Other times they keep them to 3. But most of the times they ALL get scored on.

His picks and inability to punch it through in the red-zone are the reason we are down to begin with. And his picks in critical situations, like the ones against Atlanta are the main freaking reason we go down.

I get that he's a rookie and make mistakes. You don't want to understand that's STILL the main reason we lose the games. Before anything else, it's that.

[GritsRgreat]

I think Cam has Tebows autograph.

[mav1234]

Is that who you keep comparing Mr. 68.0 to? Why? You wanna make Newton look bad or what?

his point was that when you cherry pick stats and ignore context like you do you can end up with some serious erroneous conclusions.

[mav1234]

Dude, we get leads back after his turnovers. You focus on the fourth quarter for your "Cam Is Not Clutch" stats but refuse to see when our defense gives up leads in the fourth. Why?

[Jangler]

The PFFL Posse.

[mav1234]

His picks and inability to punch it through in the red-zone are the reason we are down to begin with. And his picks in critical situations, like the ones against Atlanta are the main freaking reason we go down.

I get that he's a rookie and make mistakes. You don't want to understand that's STILL the main reason we lose the games. Before anything else, it's that.

Dude, we get leads back after his turnovers. You focus on the fourth quarter for your "Cam Is Not Clutch" stats but refuse to see when our defense gives up leads in the fourth. Why?

The turnover against Atlanta was not the main reason we lost our lead, though. It wasn't at all. His first INT did not influence us losing our lead in the 4th. His second int didn't cause us to lose our lead in the 4th, the defense gave that up on their own. His second INT did allow the Falcons to take the lead, but that's something different entirely. And I think most would agree Atlanta was not a good game by our offense, defense, OR special teams.

He's not the main reason we are losing most games. He may be part of it, but he is not the main reason. I would say the main reason is our defense and special teams that are at the bottom of the league. That's awful

[mav1234]

The PFFL Posse.

I don't know why I bother :( I feel dumb for responding but I keep hoping he'll see reason for some reason.

[rayzor]

I don't know why I bother :( I feel dumb for responding but I keep hoping he'll see reason for some reason.

you should and it won't happen.

leave it alone.

[TrueDat]

his point was that when you cherry pick stats and ignore context like you do you can end up with some serious erroneous conclusions.

I don't cherry pick poo. You guys cherry pick stats. You think yards are important and nothing else matters.

-Interceptions are more important than yards

-Incompletions in critical situations are more important than yards

-Failing to score in the red-zone is more important than yards(45% dude!)

-three 3 and outs in a row is more important than one touchdown. It hurts you more than one touchdown helps you. Did you know that? One touchdown doesn't make up for three, 3 and outs in a row. Look it up, it's true.

-the average offense scores 13 points off of 200 yards of offense. we score 10.6. And that's an average offense. Not a good one. But an average one.

-a 68.0 QB rating in tied or games down by a score in the 4th quarter is more important than all the yards in the world and everything that happened up to that point in the game. Your 4th quarter play when the game is on the line is more important than all your other plays in the game.

- A sack is more important than a pass completion because it usually counts as both an incompletion, a loss of down, and lost yards. A completion doesn't necessarily get you any of those things, other than a completed pass.

I'm not cherry picking stats. I'm ranking them by what's most important. And yards is at the bottom of that list.

No one is saying Cam Newton isn't doing good things too. It's just obvious to anyone that actually takes the time to look, that the mistakes he makes are more costly than all the good things combined. And when your QB hurts your team more than it helps, it doesn't matter how grand the help may appear or may actually be. The mistakes are grander. The help doesn't make up for the mistakes. You will lose every time.

[BBQ&Beer]

I don't know why I bother :( I feel dumb for responding but I keep hoping he'll see reason for some reason.

I'm just fascinated by his insistence on coming back ban after ban using the same cherry picked arguments. It's great character study.

[TrueDat]

Dude, we get leads back after his turnovers. You focus on the fourth quarter for your "Cam Is Not Clutch" stats but refuse to see when our defense gives up leads in the fourth. Why?

The turnover against Atlanta was not the main reason we lost our lead, though. It wasn't at all. His first INT did not influence us losing our lead in the 4th. His second int didn't cause us to lose our lead in the 4th, the defense gave that up on their own. His second INT did allow the Falcons to take the lead, but that's something different entirely. And I think most would agree Atlanta was not a good game by our offense, defense, OR special teams.

He's not the main reason we are losing most games. He may be part of it, but he is not the main reason. I would say the main reason is our defense and special teams that are at the bottom of the league. That's awful

And how the hell do you suppose that's possible without the fuging defense stopping the other team?

Doesn't that mean my defense is doing a better job at stopping my opponents than my offense did at scoring against my opponents if we were down because of our offense?

Isn't that the ONLY way that's even possible? The only way that's possible is if my defense FIRST makes up for my offense's mistakes.

Where is your reasoning?