Football Outsiders updated Panthers statistics

[Floppin]

PFFL, special teams play is not a part of the offense. It may have the ability to score points but it is not considered part of the "offense" in a traditional sense. It does, however, affect how well the offense can perform based on field position and other factors. Any formula that includes special teams play into "offensive efficiency" isn't really a measure of offensive efficiency but rather a measure of the TEAMS scoring efficiency.

[PantherProwler]

And after all this the most important stat is 2-7.....I don't care if we average a million YPP, all I care about is wins.

That is offensive YPP or scoring efficiency or total offense efficiency. High offensive YPP = WINNING RECORD.

Teams ranked by offensive scoring efficiency and winning record(ypp).

W1(8-0)1 Green Bay 11.5

W2(8-1) San Francisco 12.0

W3(6-3) Chicago 12.4

W4(6-3) Detroit 12.9

W5(5-4) NY Jets 13.1

W6(6-3) Cincinnati 13.2

W7(6-3) Baltimore 13.6

W8 (7-3) New Orleans14.0

W9(5-4) Buffalo 14.1

W10(7-3) Houston 14.5

W11(6-3) New England 15.0

L12(4-5) Denver 15.2

W13(5-4) Atlanta 15.4

W14(5-4) Tennessee 15.4

W15(6-3) NY Giants 15.4

L16(3-6) Arizona 15.7

L17(5-4) Dallas 16.3

L18(2-7) Minnesota 16.4

L19(4-5) San Diego 16.5

W20(5-4) Oakland 16.7

L21(3-6) Philadelphia 17.1

W22(7-3) Pittsburgh 17.4

L23(2-7) Miami 18.3

L24(3-6) Seattle 18.7

L25(2-7) Carolina 18.9

L26(3-6) Jacksonville 19.1

L27(4-5) Tampa Bay 19.1

L28(4-5) Kansas City 19.6

L29(3-6) Cleveland 20.2

L30(3-6) Washington 20.5

L31(0-10) Indianapolis 21.0

L32(2-7) St Louis 24.7

No other stat other than YPP matches up with winning and losing records other than: winning and losing records and PPG gets close. If you rank teams by yards or "total offense yards", it won't do this. If you rank teams by "total defense" it won't show this.

So you wanna win? Have an efficient offense that scores a lot of points or a very easy schedule. It's that simple. Why do you lose? You have an inefficient offense or a tough schedule.

In our case, our offense is inefficient but has an average to easy schedule of defenses(which means it's worse than 25th). Our defense is very efficient but has a tough schedule of offenses(which means our defense is better than 20th).

There's only really been 1 team ranked below league average all year long with a winning record: Pittsburg. If you look at their schedule and quarterback it will explain it. Oakland will either have to improve its efficiency by Sunday or it will no longer be a winning team when we get to a total of 10 games.

The discrepancy in placement of winning teams is mostly strength of schedule.

[panthers55]

Folks you are wasting your time with the troll. From the last several threads by him and his alts it is clear to me that he can't assimilate new data and reformulate his thinking based on new information. He only seems to be able to reinterate the same tired argument which is incorrect and we all see it. The numbers are there but his interpretation and thinking are wrong and instead of admitting it, he just reiterates the same old thing over and over as if that somehow makes it correct. PFFL does not want to learn anything or benefit from the wisdom of anyone else. Rather he wants to argue his point of view regardless of it's validity. That doesn't make him a poster who wants to interact with others but a troll with an agenda.

I don't have time to waste. This is like teaching a pig to whistle. It doesn't work and it goes nowhere. Carry on but it is useless

[PantherProwler]

PFFL, special teams play is not a part of the offense. It may have the ability to score points but it is not considered part of the "offense" in a traditional sense. It does, however, affect how well the offense can perform based on field position and other factors. Any formula that includes special teams play into "offensive efficiency" isn't really a measure of offensive efficiency but rather a measure of the TEAMS scoring efficiency.

Special teams is actually separated in multiple teams: offense and defense.

Special teams offense: punt returner, kick returner, field goal/PAT unit. They are all able to score points. All of their points get accounted by YPP because they are part of your scoring offense!

Special teams defense: punt coverage unit, kick return coverage unit, field goal/PAT coverage unit. All part of your defense.

That's why YPP is separated in two: There's offense YPP(25th). There's defense YPP(29th. not a measurement of your defense). It accounts for each side separately.

I have never heard of anyone use the term, let alone the stat, "team ypp" but it would either be our total team yards(not even NFL.com keeps track of this in one measurement) or total offense yards/total points. That's total team scoring efficiency. So I guess our team YPP is 400/ 21.4 points = 18.7(almost identical to our offensive ypp 18.9. Only difference is a safety from our defense which helps our team ypp).

[PantherProwler]

Folks you are wasting your time with the troll. From the last several threads by him and his alts it is clear to me that he can't assimilate new data and reformulate his thinking based on new information. He only seems to be able to reinterate the same tired argument which is incorrect and we all see it. The numbers are there but his interpretation and thinking are wrong and instead of admitting it, he just reiterates the same old thing over and over as if that somehow makes it correct. PFFL does not want to learn anything or benefit from the wisdom of anyone else. Rather he wants to argue his point of view regardless of it's validity. That doesn't make him a poster who wants to interact with others but a troll with an agenda.

I don't have time to waste. This is like teaching a pig to whistle. It doesn't work and it goes nowhere. Carry on but it is useless

Stop calling me a fuging troll! You are the freaking troll. And you are trolling me! I am talking facts, math and numbers, and you are talking poo. That makes YOU a damn TROLL!

You have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously. You don't. How the hell does presenting our team's stats make me a troll? I'm a troll cause I can do math, know stats, and you can't? And I have assimilated all the new information and responded to everything that was brought up.

I don't ignore valid points like you do. Like all of you keep ignoring how OFFENSIVE YPP matches up with winning and losing records. Just above. You keep ignoring all those black W's so you can continue trolling me and the defense. You keep ignoring how nearly all teams with winning records are ranked high in offensive ypp and vice versa.

Who is the one that's not able to assimilate new information, you little troll?

[panthers55]

PFFL, special teams play is not a part of the offense. It may have the ability to score points but it is not considered part of the "offense" in a traditional sense. It does, however, affect how well the offense can perform based on field position and other factors. Any formula that includes special teams play into "offensive efficiency" isn't really a measure of offensive efficiency but rather a measure of the TEAMS scoring efficiency.

Don't waste your time. His linear thinking ignores that football is a team sport and each unit is interactive. If it says offensive efficiency he fails to see that they do not operate in a vacuum and can only move the ball from where they receive it from special teams and that they can drive it 60 yards but if special teams misses the field goal it is not an offensive failure although it goes against the offensive efficiency. Ask yourself one question. No matter what you have said, has he taken your point of view and altered his one bit? If the answer is no, it won't happen.

[PantherProwler]

Don't waste your time. His linear thinking ignores that football is a team sport and each unit is interactive. If it says offensive efficiency he fails to see that they do not operate in a vacuum and can only move the ball from where they receive it from special teams and that they can drive it 60 yards but if special teams misses the field goal it is not an offensive failure although it goes against the offensive efficiency. Ask yourself one question. No matter what you have said, has he taken your point of view and altered his one bit? If the answer is no, it won't happen.

And you still don't get the fact that YPP accounts for that. It's field position and points and turnovers! YPP is the ONLY stat that doesn't opperate in a vaccum. That's why it is the most important. It fuging includes EVERYTHING and separates it into two efficiency ratios: defense and offense. Defense YPP and Offense YPP.

When your offense gets short field position it lowers their YPP. It increases their efficiency.

When your opponents gets good field position it lowers a defense's YPP!

That's what the it measures dude. Yes I have taken everybody's point of view into consideration. Including yours. You don't take mine!

So people please stop listening to guys who have no idea how to use stats or what they mean. Clearly nobody else here understands that points is more important than yards.

[Floppin]

You just don't understand that when people are talking about OFFENSE, they are talking about when the quarterback is on the field. THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY SPECIAL TEAMS PLAY, DEFENSIVE PLAY, OR ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL. No one is arguing that your stats line up with wins, but it is not a measure of OFFENSIVE EFFICIENCY, it is a measure of TEAM SCORING EFFICIENCY.

[Marguide]

No other stat other than YPP matches up with winning and losing records other than: winning and losing records and PPG gets close. If you rank teams by yards or "total offense yards", it won't do this. If you rank teams by "total defense" it won't show this.

See bolded above...also not true. Point differential (points scored minus points allowed) matches up very nicely.

Your infatuation with YPP is just weird. Apparently you think you have uncovered the Rosetta Stone of football stats and it's just not true.

[nosuchthingasapanther]

this thread makes my head hurt.

[teeray]

Mav, is what you are trying to tell me that ypp is only a measurement of our actual offense? Because not only does that help prove my point, but it is wrong. But first I wanna clarify that you agree that it is in fact a measurement of our offense's efficiency.

Cause that is what you are saying there. Right? And I will address both of your points. I promise. But first I wanna make sure we are on the same page there.

Oh and btw....a punt return for a touchdown + PAT is always = 14.2 ypp.

And you are the only person I have heard referring to total yards as anything other than what everyone in the world refers to as total yards or "total offense". The NFL does not not include special teams yards, kick return yards, punt return yards in offensive total yards or "fake total offense". They don't include any of that. Which is why statistics that only take into consideration "offensive" yards are useless. So are the ones that only use "per drive". It doesn't account for starting field position or turnovers. If you don't like stats that don't account for special teams, why the hell are you encouraging Teeray with his per drive stats? Those don't say anything about special teams or turnovers.

That's why YPP is the best. Because it does account for those yards and includes points and turnovers and schedule. I promise you.

So for simplicity's sake...

Go to NFL.com: http://www.nfl.com/teams/carolinapan...stics?team=CAR

Total Offensive yards = 3600

400 yards per game

Total Points Scored = 192(it includes a safety)

21.4 points per game(with a safety from our defense)

21.1 Total Points scored by our "true total offense" per game(offense +special teams offense or punt/kick returner + FG/PAT unit scores +)

That is your true "total offense": offense + punt/kick returner + FG unit.

400/21.1 = yards per point. = 18.9 ypp

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-point

18.9 ypp.

This is your TRUE TOTAL OFFENSE SCORING EFFICIENCY. Carolina is 25th.

This is why YPP works. It is not calculated by drive(although it can be explained using drives but you all are going to complain that it's too long or too complicated for you to read if I explain it.)

It is calculated by using NFL.com's "total offense" / PPG. Scoring offense for the offense efficiency, scoring defense for defensive efficiency. Two different YPP numbers. one for the offense. one for the defense. You don't have to go through all that yourself though because it is right here separated in both: http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-point

:nonod: Please learn how your favorite stat is calculated.

Take our last game for example. Tennessee according to www.teamrankings.com (your sourced site for YPP) had a YPP last week against us of 12.8.

They had 211 passing yards, 172 rushing yards, and 103 punt return yards.

But YPP is 211+172 (383) divided by the total points scored (30) The punt returns yardage doesn't count toward YPP. Otherwise their YPP would have been 16.2 if you added that extra 103 total yards, not 12.8. So when you say stuff like:

Oh and btw....a punt return for a touchdown + PAT is always = 14.2 ypp.

You are showing that you don't even understand YPP.

[PantherProwler]

See bolded above...also not true. Point differential (points scored minus points allowed) matches up very nicely.

Your infatuation with YPP is just weird. Apparently you think you have uncovered the Rosetta Stone of football stats and it's just not true.

1.That's points, not yards, right?

And....

2.ypp differential at an even turnover margin = points differential. SAME THING!!!

Points differential: 26.3/ 21.1 =1.24

Ypp differential(even turnover margin): 18.9/15.22 = 1.24:D

:rofl:You all just wanna keep arguing with me to be proven wrong 1 million different ways?

[teeray]

1.That's points, not yards, right?

And....

2.ypp differential at an even turnover margin = points differential. SAME THING!!!

Points differential: 26.3/ 21.1 =1.24

Ypp differential(even turnover margin): 17.38/15.22 = 1.14:D

:rofl:You all just wanna keep arguing with me to be proven wrong 1 million different ways?

He didn't say it was better he said it matched up just as well in terms of a winning and losing statistic.

And nobody is arguing that YPP isn't a good barometer for team success. Just that is isn't considered an offensive efficiency statistic.

[PantherProwler]

He didn't say it was better he said it matched up just as well in terms of a winning and losing statistic.

And nobody is arguing that YPP isn't a good barometer for team success. Just that is isn't considered an offensive efficiency statistic.

That's what it is by definition: scoring efficiency ratio

scoring offense= total offense

scoring offense efficiency = total offense efficiency.

It's not hard to grasp! Stop fuging arguing with me.

It matched up because it is exactly the same thing! And it's the ONLY one!