Special Teams and Defense don't even belong in the NFL

[mav1234]

Dude.....total yards for offense from ESPN.com = 405. Stop arguing.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311030029

And yes those sack yards are bad and do hurt our total offense. Guess who's fault that is? Offense. O line and Cam Newton.

So do penalties. And we have 0 points at half time against the 17th ranked defense in the league.

PS: I would imagine that is rushing.

Ok, 405 total yards. You're saying that return yards are showing up in the form of "rushes" on box scores (instead of in return yards where they actually are?)

OK

C. Newton 6 53

J. Stewart 13 49

D. Williams 7 26

S. Smith 1 12

Team 27 140

which of those four were returning kicks and punts?

reality: total offense = passing yards adjusted for sacks + rushing yards. Nothing directly to do with special teams yards.

[realtriumph]

Ok, 405 total yards. You're saying that return yards are showing up in the form of "rushes" on box scores (instead of in return yards where they actually are?)

OK

C. Newton 6 53

J. Stewart 13 49

D. Williams 7 26

S. Smith 1 12

Team 27 140

which of those four were returning kicks and punts?

reality: total offense = passing yards adjusted for sacks + rushing yards. Nothing directly to do with special teams yards.

First of all I said I would imagine. I don't check how that's factored in because it accounts for everything.

YPP is a measurement of field position and yards. Do you understand? When a field is shortened that is a benefit of special teams offense.

Or a turnover.

But if you take the total offensive yards and divide that by points it gives you, your YPP. It accounts for special teams offense.

Field position and scoring is the only thing that can improve your ypp. A turnover or special teams offense. It's a measurement of all offensive scoring efficiency.

That's why when you take 405 yards total yards/ 21 points against Vikings it = exactly the YPP number 19.3

That is what is says doesn't it? 19.3.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/total-defense-category

You don't need to break them all down. It accounts for everything.

[mav1234]

now you are back tracking :)

It's TOTAL offensive yards!

Special teams offense + Offense = Total offense.

from above... clearly there is no "special teams offense" being added in there.

I have repeatedly said that YPP is impacted directly by special teams and defense (but that the yards those units gain/whatever for the offense is NOT directly shown) which is precisely why it is not a good metric to use for offensive efficiency. Nobody is disputing that YPP is influenced by special teams, we're just clarifying for you what YPP is. In previous posts you seemed to think that if your special teams got you the ball at the 20 and you marched for 80 yards that was a 100 yard drive as far as YPP calculations go but it isn't, it's an 80 yard drive.

This is important because YPP is not just showing you how efficient the offense is at scoring, but it is showing you how many yards a team needs to gain to score... which is HEAVILY influenced by important things like field position from return yards and turnovers.

[iluvdapanthersyo]

Defense didn't lose this one.

[realtriumph]

If my offense could score touchdowns:

-If my PR grabs a kick return in the endzone and returns it to the 20 it gives my offense a ypp of 80/7 = 11.4

-If my special teams offense sucks....and starts at the 0 yard line it gives my offense a ypp of: 100/7 = 14.3

-If my defense gives my offense the ball at midfield: 50/7 = 7.14

If my offense only scores 3 points:

-defense gives the ball at midfield: 50/3 = 16.6

and if my offense scores nothing: it has 0 points.

So you take their total yards of offense and divide by 0. It's infinitely atrocious.

But their yards do add up towards their total yards for the season and then they get divided by the points they scored so far that season making their overall YPP worse.

[mav1234]

dude I understand YPP perfectly

your posts in previous threads, the ones Teeray were disagreeing with, said that your first example there would have been the same as the second example. hell you pretty much said that in THIS thread... YPP is calculated purely from yards the offense generated and points the team scores, but obviously both those are influenced by D & ST. Nobody is disputing that.

Doesn't matter, I'm glad we've finally come to an agreement that YPP shows much more than just the offense.

[realtriumph]

now you are back tracking :)

from above... clearly there is no "special teams offense" being added in there.

I have repeatedly said that YPP is impacted directly by special teams and defense (but that the yards those units gain/whatever for the offense is NOT directly shown) which is precisely why it is not a good metric to use for offensive efficiency. Nobody is disputing that YPP is influenced by special teams, we're just clarifying for you what YPP is. In previous posts you seemed to think that if your special teams got you the ball at the 20 and you marched for 80 yards that was a 100 yard drive as far as YPP calculations go but it isn't, it's an 80 yard drive.

This is important because YPP is not just showing you how efficient the offense is at scoring, but it is showing you how many yards a team needs to gain to score... which is HEAVILY influenced by important things like field position from return yards and turnovers.

WRONG! YPP is only directly impacted by special teams offense only and a forced fumble recovery. PR = offense. PR unit is the offensive side of special teams. So is your FG unit.

The rest are impacted by the other team's offenses YPP. Giveaways.

So a defense can only improve your offense's ypp.

Your offense can poo all over your defense's PPG or YPP by turning over the ball and give the other team good field position and at the same time hurting their own.

YPP is scoring offense efficiency. If special teams gets a PR...it improves offense efficiency. Understand?

Which is what happened this game. We have the most inefficient offense in the NFL. Period. We will be ranked nearly last after this game. Right there with Indianapolis.

[realtriumph]

I'm done. If you ever wanna talk real football and discuss what's really wrong with our team, you can find me here(check my prediction by the way):

http://pantherstalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=21.0

You will see I was spot on.

I'm tired of being called names for knowing football. You can sit here and argue with these guys for 3 years and you will never figure out what's wrong with our team. You will keep blaming it on the wrong people.

I only care to find 3-4 guys that understand how football works so I can discuss what's really wrong with my team intelligently and stop arguing. I wanna be able to scout a quarterback objectively so I know where my team stands without being called a gazillion names.

That's it. Now you have learned another thing from me and I know you won't admit it: YPP. Use it. It works. And if you'd like we can discuss more together. But I wanna find guys that actually want to understand the game of football.

You will wake up and realize that an offense who scores 0 points by half time is a bad offense.

Good day.

[mav1234]

Your defense can hurt your offense's potential for YPP, the same way special teams can.

If you have an offense that scores from anywhere on the field, and your defense allows your opponent to march down the field then stops them on the 1 preventing any points and causing a turnover on downs... the offense gets the ball at the 1, scores on a 99 yard drive. This YPP will be lower than if the defense had stopped the opposing team with a 3 and out at the 20 and your offense had scored immediately. This is obviously hypothetical.

These stats are all related - YPP is NOT just offense, it is a reflection of field position, which is NOT just "offense special teams," but also a result of how well your defense is playing.

[pantherclaw]

Thanks for another fuged up Sunday

no blame for all ths mistakes the offense is making?

The defense is playing better than the offense. Fact.

Special teams has been the worst in panther history.

[mav1234]

no blame for all ths mistakes the offense is making?

The defense is playing better than the offense. Fact.

Special teams has been the worst in panther history.

just keep in mind when this post was made, our offense had 2 drives, one of which got deep into the red zone. Yes, we had a fumble, but it looked like we'd be capable of moving the ball. Defense then gave up a 92 yard drive.

but the offense did poo all after that. Defense actually stiffened.

Overall, defense played better. Our defense was good enough today for us to win this game if our offense played as it usually does.

[Gazi]

no blame for all ths mistakes the offense is making?

The defense is playing better than the offense. Fact.

Special teams has been the worst in panther history.

I guess the offense just followed the D and ST and said fug it. I should have tuned out as well

[mav1234]

chud realized he was making the other coaches look bad and adjusted accordingly