A scary stat for the offense...

[BigSyke]

they tend call stupid plays in the 4th quarter, like telling cam to run on 3rd and 5, 3 straight times.

newton is actually decent in the 4th q because he drives the team down to the redzone at the last minute, but just cant punch it in.

REDZONE SCOING IS THE (biggest)PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!

now you can blame that on plays or the execution..........

[WilliamsR]

:lol: Overall time of possession has nothing to do with number of possessions :lol:

Really....another genius statement by analyst Teeray.:rolleyes:

It does when you factor in the fact that time of possession is in the offense's favor because of penalties. If you take 20 minutes for 1 offensive possession time runs out genius! So you're not going to have a whole bunch of possessions.

Again, more than two strings of logic. Football requires that. So do football stats.

When it comes to stats, football logic and numbers

I am here....................................

Passing grade is here................................................

And you are here........................................................

When you cross that passing line, you might actually start making some sense when you use numbers. They might match up with the reality of our record and what's really going on on the field. So I challenge your little brain to start using it on a more "efficient" level Teeray.

I challenge the entire Huddle to start using theirs instead of eating pie that way you stop getting mad at people who are doing it and calling them trolls.

This is what you leave out:

Carolina defense: Opponent's number of first down possessions per game: 16th.

Carolina defense time of possession: 11th. They are on the field less time than 21 defenses.

Carolina offense time of possession: 11th They are on the field more time than 21 offenses.

Turnover margin is almost even.

So our offense should ALSO be 16th in offensive possessions. They are not. Take one guess why. Hint: it's what pie does to your brain and I stated it above.

[chef17]

You are ignorant. How does that explain me saying I wanted Moore over Clausen? How does it explain me wanting VINCE YOUNG over CAM NEWTON? They are both fuging black. How does it explain me wanting Vince Young over Andrew Luck when people were still thinking we could get him? I wanted the black dude not the white QB superstar.

Logic says I am against rookie QB's, not black quarterbacks, because they are more prone to a team having a losing record. I wanted a young vet with some experience so we would win some games this year.

But if I had to play your stupid race card game, yes, I think on average a white QB is a much better passer, and it has less to do with the color of their skin, but more to do with the fact that they are less athletic, are more intelligent and less jock, and stick to one thing.

You see it doesn't matter if you are black or white when it comes to the QB position....FOOTBALL is a game of specialists at their positions. Any guy, even Ben Rothlesberger or Josh Freeman, that are big dual rushing QB's are going to be less accurate passers.

Wanna know why? Two reasons.

1. If I sit here all day and all I do is pass the fuging ball 24/7 I'm going to be a better passer than you, who also spends 25% of the time rushing. I specialize better in passing than you over the course of my career. I become an expert passer. My offense will also be built around this factor.

2. If you are a big QB, black or white, you're more prone to doing stupid things. And this also goes for white guys like Bret Farve too. You are not as afraid of taking a hit, so you sit there, take a hit and throw off your back foot, or try to pass on the run, being less accurate, or while getting hit making you throw a pooload of picks. Big dumb JOCK QB's who run, regardless or being white or black, aren't accurate passers. I'm not sure if Cam's a dumb jock though, but he's certainly a rusher.

So smaller QB's like Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or older dudes like Drew Brees HAVE to become really good at getting rid of the ball, and being accurate. FEAR is a primary motivator. FEAR drives someone to do that. The fear of getting your lights knocked out.

But not so much fear where you are a total pussy and you crumble like Claussen.

So if you want to see a really good and accurate black quarterback at passing, look for a smaller dude, intelligent, who doesn't rush. The first black QB that comes out of college that does this has the best chances of being the first elite black Aaron Rodgers.

And the reason why that hasn't happened in the past 20 years, is not the fuging white man's fault. 50 years ago you could say it was race. But nobody's stopping smart, intelligent and athletic black guys who dedicate their lives to one thing, passing a football, from entering the NFL or college.

McNabb and Ben are like one and the same, regardless of the color of their skin. They are big dumb jocks and those guys are never going to be elite passers;)

Because believe it or not, SMARTS counts. And I'm not sure Clausen had either of these things. I think Cam has much more football sense than Clausen. But he falls under the athletic QB who rushes. So he's not specializing in passing. He has to give up rushing for life and start becoming afraid of getting hit...which is not going to happen in order to become an elite passer.

That's why Vick might have a better chance. He's starting to learn this now that his speed slowed down.

Please explain how Rodgers is a great passer because of fear yet he got concussions last season because he wouldn't slide? If he was afraid of hits don't you think he would have slid?

Also please explain how Ben is a "big dual rushing QB" but Rodgers isn't when Rodgers averages more rushes per season than Ben since he became a starter

[panthers55]

Thought I would check in and make some comments. First of all taking time off the clock through long drives by the offense is almost always a good thing. Frankly the conversation that this is somehow a bad thing or limits the number of possessions makes little football sense at all. Long drives by the offense are necessary when the offense gets the ball in a disadvantageous position. But whether we score or not, moving the ball a minimum of 30 yards and then executing a good punt with little return effectively flips the field and forces their offense to move the length of the field. If their offense does that, it is surely the fault of the defense. Another question... How many long drives has our defense given up this year. I don't have any numbers but it just seems that we have given up lots of long drives and big explosive plays which flips the field negatively.

Secondly taking time off the clock does keep the other team's offense off the field. On the other hand this requires the defense to get off the field and give the offense the ball in an advantageous position. Does anyone want to argue that the defense has been good in creating 3 and outs and limiting the opponent's opportunities. So if both team's defenses are not playing well and giving the opponent lots of yards and long drives, then each team will have limited drives ultimately meaning the game depends on big plays and special teams. Unfortunately this is not where we shine.

Time of possession is largely equal between the defense and offense with the offense at 30:49 and the defense being 29:10. Given the offense is engaging in long drives and gaining lots of yards it also means that the defene is doing the same thing- giving up long drives and lots of yards. Unfortunately we are also giving up lots of points as well which is the biggest issue. The job of the offense is to control the ball, manage field position and ultimately score points. The job of the defense is to create turnovers, limit the other team's time of possession and not give up lots of yards and points.

Lets be real here, if we get rid of the arguments based on having an agenda and forcing the stats to fit the agenda, I find it hard for anyone to argue that the defense has had more success in accomplishhing it's objectives versus the offense accomplishing their objectives. We can argue all the esoteric stats and run down as many bunny trails as people want to travel. but any football fan with half a brain knows that the problem is with the defense not the offense. Sure we could be more efficient in the redzone, have more fourth quarter drives for scores and other issues, but our defense last year did as well as this year's has done with no offense to speak of compared to this year. Can a team lose the time of possession battle and still win? yes if the team is a quick strike offense and they get favorable field position due to good special teams and turnovers. Can a team win consistentlly with poor special teams, a defense that is poor in creating turnovers, can't get off the field and gives up over 26 points a game. Very hard to do.

It is hard to believe that the trolls are even being listened to here, it looks like this thread is headed to another 200 posts and frankly arguing with PFFL is a waste of time. He doesn't want to argue football or even be an informed fan. He just wants to argue and use convoluted arguments to win the debate. I can't believe he would actually call himself a knowledgable football fan and spout the positions his alters have taken. The problem is that his basic premises are often faulty and that is where you need to focus if you plan to continue arguing. Stop arguing point by point based on esoteric stats because that essentially legitimizes his perspective. That is the issue and the place to discuss. That is the best I can do to help you.

[klumme]

Wow. I thought I was going to be part of a real & logical conversation about the Panthers...guess I should have read back a few pages first. Who exactly is too emotional?

Well he is on his 3rd account so that should tell you something about his emotional level.

What he seems not to get is that TRD has a wife and he dont want to fug with him.

[Marguide]

But if I had to play your stupid race card game, yes, I think on average a white QB is a much better passer, and it has less to do with the color of their skin, but more to do with the fact that they are less athletic, are more intelligent and less jock, and stick to one thing.

I can't imagine why anyone would think you were a racist! I mean just re-read that nice balanced statement above.

Everyone knows that whites are less athletic and more intelligent, right?

Some of the crap you spew convinces me you need serious help. And that is not something I am throwing around loosely. You need professional physicological help. Do yourself a favor and get it.

[frash.exe]

People still debating with the forum's paragon of big tongued retards, pffl

Huddle, i am disappoint

[mav1234]

aren't we one of the league leaders on offense in terms of number of first downs in a game? we also have a good 3rd down conversion percentage.

very very few of our drives are 3 and outs. I guess our offense shares that in common with our defense...

when we get the ball, we tend hold onto it and drive (often for long TD drives). this gives us a good ToP. since our defense's ability to get teams off the field on 3rd down is pretty poor I think it's fair to say it is not our defense giving our offense more time of possession.

[teeray]

Really....another genius statement by analyst Teeray.:rolleyes:

It does when you factor in the fact that time of possession is in the offense's favor because of penalties. If you take 20 minutes for 1 offensive possession time runs out genius! So you're not going to have a whole bunch of possessions.

Again, more than two strings of logic. Football requires that. So do football stats.

When it comes to stats, football logic and numbers

I am here....................................

Passing grade is here................................................

And you are here........................................................

When you cross that passing line, you might actually start making some sense when you use numbers. They might match up with the reality of our record and what's really going on on the field. So I challenge your little brain to start using it on a more "efficient" level Teeray.

I challenge the entire Huddle to start using theirs instead of eating pie that way you stop getting mad at people who are doing it and calling them trolls.

This is what you leave out:

Carolina defense: Opponent's number of first down possessions per game: 16th.

Carolina defense time of possession: 11th. They are on the field less time than 21 defenses.

Carolina offense time of possession: 11th They are on the field more time than 21 offenses.

Turnover margin is almost even.

So our offense should ALSO be 16th in offensive possessions. They are not. Take one guess why. Hint: it's what pie does to your brain and I stated it above.

Yes you have schooled me. :rofl:

Because now your argument has become:

"Our offense has so many long sustained drives and has to overcome so many penalties yet still scores at a rate that has them ranked 6th in points per possession and 6th in TDs per possession which is why the offense doesn't have more possessions."

So our offense is even better than I stated because they sustain drives, score at a high rate, and overcome penalties. Wow. I feel even better about our offense now.

By the way. Considering the fact that games are generally an even 60 minutes in a football game it is ingenious of you as a stats wizard to realize that if your offense is 11th in TOP your defense is also 11th in TOP.

Hey how do these two things look alike?

Offensive TOP:

1 Houston

2 San Diego

3 Philadelphia

4 Pittsburgh

5 New Orleans

6 Green Bay

7 Atlanta

8 San Francisco

9 Dallas

10 Cincinnati

11 Carolina

Defensive TOP:

1 Houston

2 San Diego

3 Philadelphia

4 Pittsburgh

5 New Orleans

6 Green Bay

7 Atlanta

8 San Francisco

9 Dallas

10 Cincinnati

11 Carolina

:lol:

Here is what you leave out.

Offensive DVOA: 6th

Defensive DVOA 31sth

Special Teams DVOA: 32nd

Plus our defense is at or near the bottom of nearly every defensive statistical category besides fumble recoveries and total yards including, but not limited to, 30th in defensive yards per possession, 31st in points per possession, 31st in TDs per possession, 29th in forced punts per possession, 27th in defensive TOs per drive, 28th in PPG, 30th in third down stops, 32nd in rushing TDs allowed, 28th in rushing yards allowed per game, and are 29th in drive success rate. All that leads to a 31st ranking for our defense in DVOA.

.

All while being on the field less than 21 other teams plus being 32nd in total opponents possessions!!

So.... tell me about your stat wizardry again??? :)

[ed bell]

Again I ask you to try and put 3 strings of thought together, not just two.

Three whole strings? Let me see if I can keep up....

If their penalties is leading them to having stalled drives, and our defense is ranked 11th in time of possession, while our offense is also getting more time on the field than our defense........whose fault is that? If they score faster, and don't blow their opportunities, they can get more posessions! Because there will be more possessions overall per game. So the number of possessions increases. That also gives the defense more chances to be on the field, get more takeaways, which would give them more possessions.

Confusing wording, but I'll battle through it....not sure how many stalled drives are a result of penalties, but it has caused problems in the Red Zone leading to field goals instead of touchdowns and punting instead of scoring in between the 20's. Everyone acknowledges that this is an area the Panthers need to improve in, nothing new or earth-shattering. As far as Defense being 11th in TOP? Does that mean that our Defense is on the field less during the game than 21 other teams? I'm assuming that is a reflection of the fact we have the advantage in TOP over the span of 8 games, so that means the Offense is 11th in TOP? I wouldn't be willing to call that a "fault", but I'd hope that an improvement in Defense and ST play would cause a net gain in starting field position, which we rank near the bottom in. That would give our guys a shorter field to work with which could result in quicker scoring and more possessions. See how this works?.....I'm not holding my breath....

You understand? But the problem here would be as long as Cam throws more pics than our opponent, the more possessions our offense gets, the more they give them away to our opponent with great field positions.

This is a bad thing.

I'm trying real hard to understand, but the sheer volume of words, theories, stats and conclusions in your numerous posts makes it almost impossible, but I'm hanging in there. So now you are saying if Cam throws more INT's than the opposing QB we want less possessions so we don't give the ball away more?....this is where it all becomes completely unhinged for me...sorry. How does this mean anything? Cam currently has an average of 1.1 INT's per game. You assume Cam gives INT's away at a greater rate than our opponent and will continue to do so? And that is a good case for hoping our high powered offense doesn't have more possession opportunities as if possessions equal more turnovers? You're just babbling at this point. Our offense is productive in yards and points. The average points per game might be lower than all of us would like, but this group moves the ball.

As long as Cam Newton has a worse interception per pass attempt than the opposing quarterback, the more possessions our offense gets, or better said, the more we pass the ball, the greater the advantage goes to our opponent. So the key is, keep the low possessions, this is a good thing with him being a rookie, but don't blow your opportunities. Get the run game going to maintain time of possession, and eliminate penalties. Don't give Cam more possession where he's passing the ball more.

Let me distill this down so we can at least agree about what these words mean....the more passes Cam attempts, the better chance that we lose if the opposing quarterback throws less INT's per attempt than Cam? This is wrong on so many levels.....Can you make this any more confusing by using 80+ words to say turnovers are bad? Cam has made mistakes and thrown some costly INT's, but he has also thrown some meaningless ones, so I'll cut him some rookie slack. He's learning.

Our time of possession favors our offense because of penalties, which is a bad thing.

So the reason we have a TOP average greater than 30 minutes per game is due to offensive penalties? Is that what this sentence means? That's all I can get out of it....and I don't really know how to respond. We have a penalty problem, which is another point that everyone knows about...

Circular logic is circular....nice and tidy to tie all these stats together from 8 games to try to prove a point about a couple of close losses. Cam ain't a turnover machine or a sack magnet compared to the league average; and our defense doesn't benefit when they have to be on the field longer...

Look, I know this will never end and I'm never going to change your mind, hell I ain't trying to. You can draw all the conclusions you want about the struggles the Panthers are experiencing, but unless you can admit that the Defense and Special Teams have contributed to the losses in close games......

[WilliamsR]

Oh and speaking of efficiency...PFFL's account had one of the highest efficiency in 2011 of pie per post before he stopped giving a poo and got his account banned because of another retard who enters conversations where he has NO CLUE what's going on and just starts talking junk, which to anyone that has a brain would mean most people liked what PFFL was saying because he wasn't sitting here all day posting pictures of ass.

He started with 0 in September only because he was right about Clausen.

It also means that like our defense, PFFL's efficient defensive logic had a positive effect on Teeray's inefficient offensive logic, because it improved his pie ratio too, but for the wrong reasons. Likewise Teeray's inefficient offensive logic had a negative effect on PFFL's otherwise very efficient logic, for the wrong reasons as well.

Just like Steve's efficient yards per catch had a positive effect on Cam Newton's yards rating. I made you appear smart and famous, but you got undeserved credit for actually being smart when you keep getting outclassed while arguing with me. You just go along with the popular opinion. Which is a travesty in both instances if you ask me. ;)

And just like history always proves, those who become famous through undeserved means, eventually become infamous as time goes by. So it's only a matter of time before everyone agrees you should never be allowed to post stats again.

You can't use them correctly and fairly. You skew them and confuse people. You are a fraud. And a bad critic of our defense. While I am a good critic of Cam Newton. And eventually most people will agree with what I am saying, but no one will credit me because I am hated when I go against popular opinion and hype. But somebody's gotta fuging do it when the rest of you lose your sense of reality and drink too much hype juice.

Bad Huddle. Or should I say beaaaaaahhhaaaad Huddle.

PFFL:

So what happens............

On the internet:

In real life:

The guy with the hat is Delhommey. Problem is Delhommey is not as smart as the guy with the hat because what that dude understands is, that's not a wolf, and neither was PFFL, he was a Panther, and that's a sheep dog.....and in real life you need one or the sheep get lost....

and eaten by wolves.

And when it comes to protecting the fanbase's sense of reality with stats...Teeray:

CAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAM! And retards like that dude above who just enters conversations and has no clue what's going on and just starts talking junk follow right along then copies my "style".

[Skew]

Hey, its yalls board, as long as you guys know and are trained to keep it on the net where you feel safe, and hold your head down and be quiet when I walk by in real life, its all gravytrain to me. By the way Skewie, how bout our new QB? I just know you looooooove what he's doing out there this year huh? :lol:

I think Cam is doing a great job. Setting records like crazy. I do love it!

Why?

Oh, that's right. Just because I'm white, your racist thinking has you believing I never wanted a black QB. I forget that sometimes.

But if you could take off your racist glasses long enough to do a search of my posts, you would know I never said I didn't want Cam. But doing that would actually shoot your racist beliefs about me all to hell. So you wouldn't want to do that now would you?

So much for dealing with facts, huh queenie? That was never really your strong suite anyway.

But good luck with your racism.

[teeray]

Oh and speaking of efficiency...PFFL's account had one of the highest efficiency in 2011 of pie per post before he stopped giving a poo and got his account banned because of another retard who enters conversations where he has NO CLUE what's going on and just starts talking junk, which to anyone that has a brain would mean most people liked what PFFL was saying because he wasn't sitting here all day posting pictures of ass.

He started with 0 in September only because he was right about Clausen.

It also means that like our defense, PFFL's efficient defensive logic had a positive effect on Teeray's inefficient offensive logic, because it improved his pie ratio too, but for the wrong reasons. Likewise Teeray's inefficient offensive logic had a negative effect on PFFL's otherwise very efficient logic, for the wrong reasons as well.

Just like Steve's efficient yards per catch had a positive effect on Cam Newton's yards rating. I made you appear smart and famous, but you got undeserved credit for actually being smart when you keep getting outclassed while arguing with me. You just go along with the popular opinion. Which is a travesty in both instances if you ask me. ;)

And just like history always proves, those who become famous through undeserved means, eventually become infamous as time goes by. So it's only a matter of time before everyone agrees you should never be allowed to post stats again.

You can't use them correctly and fairly. You skew them and confuse people. You are a fraud. And a bad critic of our defense. While I am a good critic of Cam Newton. And eventually most people will agree with what I am saying, but no one will credit me because I am hated when I go against popular opinion and hype. But somebody's gotta fuging do it when the rest of you lose your sense of reality and drink too much hype juice.

Bad Huddle. Or should I say beaaaaaahhhaaaad Huddle.

PFFL:

So what happens............

On the internet:

In real life:

The guy with the hat is Delhommey. Problem is Delhommey is not as smart as the guy with the hat because what that dude understands is, that's not a wolf, and neither was PFFL, he was a Panther, and that's a sheep dog.....and in real life you need one or the sheep get lost....

and eaten by wolves.

And when it comes to protecting the fanbase's sense of reality with stats...Teeray:

CAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAM! And retards like that dude above who just enters conversations and has no clue what's going on and just starts talking junk follow right along then copies my "style".

[WilliamsR]

Three whole strings? Let me see if I can keep up....

Confusing wording, but I'll battle through it....not sure how many stalled drives are a result of penalties, but it has caused problems in the Red Zone leading to field goals instead of touchdowns and punting instead of scoring in between the 20's. Everyone acknowledges that this is an area the Panthers need to improve in, nothing new or earth-shattering. As far as Defense being 11th in TOP? Does that mean that our Defense is on the field less during the game than 21 other teams? I'm assuming that is a reflection of the fact we have the advantage in TOP over the span of 8 games, so that means the Offense is 11th in TOP? I wouldn't be willing to call that a "fault", but I'd hope that an improvement in Defense and ST play would cause a net gain in starting field position, which we rank near the bottom in. That would give our guys a shorter field to work with which could result in quicker scoring and more possessions. See how this works?.....I'm not holding my breath....

I'm trying real hard to understand, but the sheer volume of words, theories, stats and conclusions in your numerous posts makes it almost impossible, but I'm hanging in there. So now you are saying if Cam throws more INT's than the opposing QB we want less possessions so we don't give the ball away more?....this is where it all becomes completely unhinged for me...sorry. How does this mean anything? Cam currently has an average of 1.1 INT's per game. You assume Cam gives INT's away at a greater rate than our opponent and will continue to do so? And that is a good case for hoping our high powered offense doesn't have more possession opportunities as if possessions equal more turnovers? You're just babbling at this point. Our offense is productive in yards and points. The average points per game might be lower than all of us would like, but this group moves the ball.

Let me distill this down so we can at least agree about what these words mean....the more passes Cam attempts, the better chance that we lose if the opposing quarterback throws less INT's per attempt than Cam? This is wrong on so many levels.....Can you make this any more confusing by using 80+ words to say turnovers are bad? Cam has made mistakes and thrown some costly INT's, but he has also thrown some meaningless ones, so I'll cut him some rookie slack. He's learning.

So the reason we have a TOP average greater than 30 minutes per game is due to offensive penalties? Is that what this sentence means? That's all I can get out of it....and I don't really know how to respond. We have a penalty problem, which is another point that everyone knows about...

Circular logic is circular....nice and tidy to tie all these stats together from 8 games to try to prove a point about a couple of close losses. Cam ain't a turnover machine or a sack magnet compared to the league average; and our defense doesn't benefit when they have to be on the field longer...

Look, I know this will never end and I'm never going to change your mind, hell I ain't trying to. You can draw all the conclusions you want about the struggles the Panthers are experiencing, but unless you can admit that the Defense and Special Teams have contributed to the losses in close games......

You are doing really good Ed. Awesomse. Seriously I am impressed but you still got me wrong on a few things.

1. No. I'm not saying we should have less possessions. I'm saying we should have less pics and a more efficient offense if we want to have more possessions. As long as we continue to throw more pics, have an inefficient offense, and a high interception per pass ratio, then it doesn't do as any good to pass a lot. And yes it is better to have less possessions as long as the reason why we have that is because our run game works, and we are up on points, not because of penalties which are "stalling" drives or inefficient offenses.

2. That is true. Not wrong. Turnovers is one the most important statistics next to winning and losing and YPP. So if we have more turnovers than the other team and an inefficient offense, the chance of losing is much greater. And it's nearly guaranteed to lead you to a losing record.

3. No because of an overall inefficient offense who can't score on the worst defenses in the league and because our defense is in fact putting them on the field more than people are giving them credit for. But the other reason why our defense is ranked so high in time of possession is because we face, overall, very efficient offenses who cut through our defense like butter and score fast. And one of the reasons other offenses have such great yards per point stats against our defense is because they don't have to travel as many yards to score a freaking point: special teams and offensive turnovers.e