A scary stat for the offense...

[teeray]

STOP TALKING STATS. JUST READ AND LEARN. I will teach you how to use them ok?

yards per point = the other team travels less yards to get 1 point.

Atlanta starting positions:

1st and 10 at ATL 20(good job Carolina special teams)

1st and 10 at ATL 19(good job Carolina special teams)

1st and 10 at ATL 20(good job Carolina special teams)

1st and 10 at ATL 25(good job Carolina special teams. Bad Job Cam Newton. Intercepted.)

1st and 10 at CAR 49(bad job Carolina offense. result of: 3 and out. Bad job Cam Newton sacked on third down at Carolina 17th. Forced ST punt.)

1st and 10 at ATL 40(bad job Carolina offense. 3 and out at Carolina 15th. Newton throws 2 back to back incomplete passes. 2 holding penalties.)

1st and 10 at CAR 39(bad job Carolina Offense. Bad Job Cam Newton INTERCEPTED at Carolina 32)

That's why my defense had bad YPP! Cam Newton.

My defense allowed 3 TD out of 7 possessions. or 42% of their drives. Pretty good I say.

Care to look at your offense real quick?

Carolina starting positions:

1st and 10 at CAR 12(atrocious job Carolina special teams offense. good job Carolina defense. Stopped Atlanta at 50 prior.)

1st and 10 at CAR 19(bad job Carolina special teams offense)

1st and 10 at CAR 22(bad job Carolina special teams offense. bad job offense Cam Newton INTERCEPTED.)

1st and 10 at CAR 20(bad job Carolina special teams offense. Good job Atlanta special teams 65 yard kick)

1st and 10 at ATL 25(Touchback. good job Atlanta kicker.)

1st and 10 at CAR 16(good job defense. stopped Atlanta at 48 prior. bad job ST offense. bad job offense. 3 and out. Cam Newton sacked. forced punt from Carolina 9.)

1st and 10 at CAR 20(good job Atlanta kicker. Touchback. Bad job offense. 3 and out. 2 back to back pass incompletions by Cam. 2 penalties by offense.)

1st and 10 at CAR 23(bad job special teams offense. Horrible job Cam Newton. Cam Newton Intercepted at Car 32 with the game tied).

1st and 10 at CAR 23(bad job special teams offense)

1st and 10 at CAR 22(Bad Job Cam Newton. Poor time management. Interception.).

So my defense got scored TD's on 3 of 7 possessions excluding turnovers. 42% This is ok. This is a win most of the time. So is keeping a team to 3 points.

Your offense scored touchdowns on 2 of 10 possessions. 20% This is FAIL!

Yes I know why my defense YPP is bad and it's always the fuging offense's fault. And mainly Cam Newton's fault. And I also know why my offense has bad YPP and it's also Cam Newton's fault

So what you're saying is....you want 20 possessions? 40 possessions? Why doesn't my offense have 42% TD's to possessions? Cause Teeray sucks!

LOL.

How the hell do you guys watch that above on TV...and come out with defense's fault? HOW? HOW?

Isn't it amazing how defense and offense effect YPP for the other side?? :lol: I have been telling you that this whole time.

You are funny. My favorite part is where you said 42% TDs on 7 possessions is fine. A "win most of the time" as you put it. I like it mostly because Indy is currently ranked last in the NFL in TDs per possession and they give up a TD on only 28% of their drives. And that is with you leaving off the 4th TD our defense gave up because it was off a turnover. If we did happen to add that TD we were exactly double the worst team currently in the NFL in TDs per possession (57%).

Wait there is more. :rofl:

As far as our offense only scoring 2 TDs on 10 drives and only being at 20%. "This is FAIL" as you put it Well, 20% TD per possession would currently place us 15th in the NFL in TDs per possession. So exactly average. It certainly wasn't our offense's best game by any means. We were only average in TDs per possession. We are typically way better than that (6th).

So by your own awesome counter argument you have now proven that our defense in comparison to the rest of the league was way, way, way, worse than the worst team in the NFL in TDs per possession. If we actually used all the TDs that our defense surrendered it would have been..... get this...... :lol:, twice as bad as the worst team in the NFL!!! Think about that for a second. That isn't crazy hyperbole that is factually accurate. We were twice as bad as the current worst team in the NFL in defensive points per possession.

And our offense was just...meh, average in terms of scoring TDs per possession.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestats

I do agree with you that in that game our turnovers hurt our chances to win the game. You will get no argument from me there.

But our defense was really, really, bad that game and gave us no chance to win the game. Sorry. You are wrong.

You really can't make this stuff up. You kill me because then you tell me to stop and listen because you are about to school me.... OMG!! I have to stop laughing and go to bed!!! Please stop so I can get some sleep.

[WilliamsR]

Isn't it amazing how defense and offense effect YPP for the other side?? :lol: I have been telling you that this whole time.

You are funny. My favorite part is where you said 42% TDs on 7 possessions is fine. A "win most of the time" as you put it. I like it most because Indy is currently ranked last in the NFL in TDs per possession and they give up a TD on only 28% of their drives. And that is with you leaving off the 4th TD our defense gave up because it was off a turnover. If we did happen to add that TD we were exactly double the worst team currently in the NFL in TDs per possession (57%).

Wait there is more. :rofl:

As far as our offense only scoring 2 TDs on 10 drives and only being at 20%. "This is FAIL" as you put it Well, 20% TD per possession would currently place us 15th in the NFL in TDs per possession. So exactly average. It certainly wasn't our offense's best game by any means. We were only average in TDs per possession. We are typically way better than that (6th).

So by your own awesome counter argument you have now proven that our defense in comparison to the rest of the league was way, way, way, worse than the worst team in the NFL in TDs per possession. If we actually used all the TDs that our defense surrendered it would have been..... get this...... :lol:, twice as bad as the worst team in the NFL!!!

And our offense was just...meh, average in terms of scoring TDs per possession.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestats

I do agree with you that in that game our turnovers hurt our chances to win the game. You will get no argument from me there.

But our defense was really, really, bad that game and gave us no chance to win the game. Sorry. You are wrong.

You really can't make this stuff up. You kill me because then you tell me to stop and listen because you are about to school me.... OMG!! I have to stop laughing and go to bed!!! Please stop so I can get some sleep.

Dude how can you possibly read that and not see who is doing a bad job? You have got to be brainwashed.

That's why nobody uses touchdowns per possession like you do. They use YPP for the offense And total defense for the defense. Cause it doesn't mean anything when you use posessions. And you are spinning poo like crazy.

It''s a meaningless statistic because it does not take into consideration starting field position. It's a possession. So yeah my defense is good at 47% when my offense screws them over like that. That's why you use YPP! Not per possession. PER YARD.

Did you actually look and see how many full posessions my defense got scored on? 2. They gave up 2 TD's when the other offense had to go down the field and score. Only 14 points. That would be #1 in PPG.

17 of Atlanta's 31 points came off bad field position thanks to Cam Newton. Do you understand that? Look at their starting positions. Do you just ignore that to make your stupid argument?field position.

That leaves 14 points in 4 drives and 209 yards. My defense gave up 14 points in 209 yards when the offense did not throw an interception or got a 3 and out.

That's 14.9 points per yard. That's #1 in the league in YPP. Yo have NO CLUE how to use these stats. None.

Offensive YPP can be improved by a defense. And our defense did that twice for them. Defensive YPP is made worse by a bad offense, turnovers and bad special teams unit.

A defense cannot hurt the rating of an offense's YPP. They can only improve it. They are not one and the same. And they are in fact 2 different numbers.

But it only goes one way. That's the part you don't understand. From defense to offense it improves YPP but doesn't hurt the offense's YPP. It cannot. There is nothing a defense can do to take away starting position from the offense unless they cause a personal foul after the other team scores a touchdown or a FG. This is the only way a defense can affect offensive Yards Per Point.

An offense can KILL a defense's YPP rating with turnovers, bad field position, and 3 and outs .This is what you don't get.

STOP USING STATS!

[WilliamsR]

I don't even know why I keep saying my defense. It's your defense too you know.

You are a terrible user of stats Teeray.

Everyone understand what it means to have short field position except you!

[Udogg]

Best gif eva. Sums up this whole thread.

[chef17]

Teeray let it go. He is convinced YPP is offense efficiency. Until you agree with that you won't agree with anything else he says.

[Udogg]

Teeray let it go. He is convinced YPP is offense efficiency. Until you agree with that you won't agree with anything else he says.

But...but.. he has stats!!!!!!!!

[teeray]

Dude how can you possibly read that and not see who is doing a bad job? You have got to be brainwashed.

That's why nobody uses touchdowns per possession like you do. They use YPP for the offense And total defense for the defense. Cause it doesn't mean anything when you use posessions. And you are spinning poo like crazy.

It''s a meaningless statistic because it does not take into consideration starting field position. It's a possession. So yeah my defense is good at 47% when my offense screws them over like that. That's why you use YPP! Not per possession. PER YARD.

Nobody uses YPP for offensive efficiency. It is sometimes referred to as scoreability but every definition of YPP states that it takes into account defense and special teams. In other words it isn't an offensive stat.

17Did you actually look and see how many full posessions my defense got scored on? 2. They gave up 2 TD's when the other offense had to go down the field and score. Only 14 points. That would be #1 in PPG.

17 of Atlanta's 31 points came off bad field position thanks to Cam Newton. Do you understand that? Look at their starting positions. Do you just ignore that to make your stupid argument?field position.

That leaves 14 points in 4 drives and 209 yards. My defense gave up 14 points in 209 yards when the offense did not throw an interception or got a 3 and out.

Okay. So if I read this correct you are saying that in the 4 drives where Atlanta's offense had to go down field and score they only gave up only 14 points in 4 drives.

Cool.

Well since you have taken field position out of the equation on those drives it is safe to use TDPP right? So our defense gave up TDs on 50% of the drives that they had to go down the field and score. That is still almost twice as bad as the worst team in the NFL in defensive TDs per possession and those teams don't even get to throw our their short fields like we just did. So they were still really, really bad even when they had a long field to defend. :lol:

That's 14.9 points per yard. That's #1 in the league in YPP. Yo have NO CLUE how to use these stats. None.

So. If you take away every drive except the drives where Atlanta, had to go more yards to score points our defensive YPP improves?? You don't say. :lol:

Offensive YPP can be improved by a defense. And our defense did that twice for them. Defensive YPP is made worse by a bad offense, turnovers and bad special teams unit.

A defense cannot hurt the rating of an offense's YPP. They can only improve it. They are not one and the same. And they are in fact 2 different numbers.

But it only goes one way. That's the part you don't understand. From defense to offense it improves YPP but doesn't hurt the offense's YPP. It cannot. There is nothing a defense can do to take away starting position from the offense unless they cause a personal foul after the other team scores a touchdown or a FG. This is the only way a defense can affect offensive Yards Per Point.

An offense can KILL a defense's YPP rating with turnovers, bad field position, and 3 and outs .This is what you don't get.

STOP USING STATS!

So if I understand you correctly. Three and outs, turnovers, and bad field position caused by your offense can kill your defensive YPP. But if a defense doesn't get three and outs, doesn't get turnovers, and doesn't give you good field position forcing your offense to have to go more yards for more points it does not hurt you offensive YPP?? :lol:

Basic math is basic.

[Porn Shop Clerk]

how much did giving up a 77 yd pnt return to pp and 2 returns to hester hurt our ypp?

is that cam's fault too you ass grazing fine young male

[Jangler]

[WilliamsR]

Nobody uses YPP for offensive efficiency. It is sometimes referred to as scoreability but every definition of YPP states that it takes into account defense and special teams. In other words it isn't an offensive stat.

Okay. So if I read this correct you are saying that in the 4 drives where Atlanta's offense had to go down field and score they only gave up only 14 points in 4 drives.

Cool.

Well since you have taken field position out of the equation on those drives it is safe to use TDPP right? So our defense gave up TDs on 50% of the drives that they had to go down the field and score. That is still almost twice as bad as the worst team in the NFL in defensive TDs per possession and those teams don't even get to throw our their short fields like we just did. So they were still really, really bad even when they had a long field to defend. :lol:

So. If you take away every drive except the drives where Atlanta, had to go more yards to score points our defensive YPP improves?? You don't say. :lol:

So if I understand you correctly. Three and outs, turnovers, and bad field position caused by your offense can kill your defensive YPP. But if a defense doesn't get three and outs, doesn't get turnovers, and doesn't give you good field position forcing your offense to have to go more yards for more points it does not hurt you offensive YPP?? :lol:

Basic math is basic.

1. No. I do not use points per possession or touchdowns per possession because it does not take into consideration field position. You do. You're using fluffy stats in an illogical manner to combat an obvious point: Turnovers by the offense hurts the offense and the defense. Teams score more points off of turnovers because they get shorter field positions.

To use touchdowns per possessions for a defense ranking correctly, you have to use possessions that start at the same field position for all teams: 20 yard line. That's why your stat is meaningless. It doesn't match up with reality. YPP is the closest stat that matches up to the reality that took place on the football field. ypp+turnovers = stat that most directly relates to winning or losing. And they are both OFFENSIVE stats.

2. Correct...offense kills our defense's YPP. Offense kills our defense's PPG. Why are you laughing? You are laughing at yourself here. You didn't get this until just now.

3. Correct! It does NOT. It doesn't HELP it. But it doesn't HURT it either. A defense can only improve an offense's YPP. I told you, you do not understand football logic therefore....STOP USING STATS. You can't use stats correctly if you do not know how they are acquired! Our defense does get 3 and outs.

Because a defense's ypp is by definition: offensive yards per point allowed. The lower the number the worst the defense's ranking. So that means what? Good field position for the other team lowers your defense's yards per point allowed ranking. DUH! Because they have to travel less. Because of turnovers and 3 and outs from our O. So stop laughing. Cause that means bad ranking for YPP on the defensive side is your offense's blame dude.

4. And that's not reality anyway. Our defense does get force fumble recoveries. It also stops teams from scoring. It also gets interceptions when the other QB throws them. It also gets fumbles when the other offense fumbles. Just against Atlanta you saw where their offense only had 7 possessions while our offense had 10. Our offense got more tries.

5. Our defense is not primarily responsible for field position. Our special teams offense is. Our defense can only directly you get you good field position if they get a takeaway. They are not primarily responsible for those either. The other team's offense is. Those are made up of a league average 0.5 forced fumble recoveries + 1 offensive giveaway = 1.5 takeaways(league average). A giveaway is primarily made up of interceptions, followed by fumbles, followed by forced fumble recoveries. A true takeaway is a forced fumble recovery. Some people may argue a batted ball that leads to an interception is also a true takeaway, but that's not how the NFL sees it. Because a batted ball that goes up in the air more often

[WilliamsR]

dp

[X-Clown]

Attn: teeray and anyone not named PFFL/WilliamsR/jamieboy/stew23/Iliveinmymom'sbasementdrinkcoderedandmasturbatewithtearsforlube

At what point are you going to realize you are wasting a great deal of time debating with a emotional 14 year old who is ALWAYS going to get the last word because he literally spends upwards of 18 hours a day looking up stats and posting them along with giant walls of text that say the exact same thing? The sooner you stop engaging him, the sooner he goes away and spends his energy on writing 100,000 word articles about the Panthers and Star Wars on his geocities-esque site and posting on his own Panthers forum where he is the only member. The mods have done all they can with banning at least 6 of his usernames.

[teeray]

I have nothing but time :lol:

[teeray]

X-Clown I have nothing but time. :)

1. No. I do not use points per possession or touchdowns per possession because it does not take into consideration field position. You do. You're using fluffy stats in an illogical manner to combat an obvious point: Turnovers by the offense hurts the offense and the defense. Teams score more points off of turnovers because they get shorter field positions.

To use touchdowns per possessions for a defense ranking correctly, you have to use possessions that start at the same field position for all teams: 20 yard line. That's why your stat is meaningless. It doesn't match up with reality. YPP is the closest stat that matches up to the reality that took place on the football field. ypp+turnovers = stat that most directly relates to winning or losing. And they are both OFFENSIVE stats.

PPP and TDPP is more reflective on what you are doing on a drive by drive basis. If every team's offense had to start at the 20 yard line the TDPP of every team would get worse not better because as you said it would take away short field TDs.

So when I say that giving up 2 TDs in 4 possessions is way worse than the worst team in the league (almost twice as bad as the worst team) it is actually worse than that because I didn't even take away their short field TDs in their percentage. So it reflects even more poorly on our defense.

Plus, you suddenly seem caught up in field position but offensive YYP is even worse in that regard. It penalizes long sustained TD drives and benefits short field TD drives. It is far less representative of what an offense is doing on a drive by drive basis than TDPP.

There is a reason that no.... none... zero credible advanced statistic sites use YPP in their efficiency formulas or as an offensive efficiency rankings in any way.

But if you are concerned about starting field position and how it relates to PPP and TDPP you should be happy to learn that our offense has been so good it has been able to overcome being 24th in starting field position and still rank 6th in TDPP and PPP. Our offense is even better when you look at it in those terms. Wow.

2. Correct...offense kills our defense's YPP. Offense kills our defense's PPG. Why are you laughing? You are laughing at yourself here. You didn't get this until just now.

You missed my point. I was laughing because of course if you only use long drives and throw our all of the short field defensive drives of course your YPP improve. But that is not how the stat works. That is why it is a bad stat for judging a defense or an offense.

But what you are saying is my point about YPP not being an accurate portrayal of what your offense or defense is doing. You are making my point! It encompasses more than just offense or defense.

3. Correct! It does NOT. It doesn't HELP it. But it doesn't HURT it either. A defense can only improve an offense's YPP. I told you, you do not understand football logic therefore....STOP USING STATS. You can't use stats correctly if you do not know how they are acquired! Our defense does get 3 and outs.

No our defense doesn't. At least not at an efficient rate. We are ranked 29th in defensive DSR (Drive success rate). Drive Success Rate (the percentage of time that a team will get a first down or touchdown in a given set of four downs) is a fancy term for three and outs. We give up a first down or a TD within 4 downs on 73% of the other team's possessions. Good for 29th in the league.

Because a defense's ypp is by definition: offensive yards per point allowed. The lower the number the worst the defense's ranking. So that means what? Good field position for the other team lowers your defense's yards per point allowed ranking. DUH! Because they have to travel less. Because of turnovers and 3 and outs from our O. So stop laughing. Cause that means bad ranking for YPP on the defensive side is your offense's blame dude.

Yes that is true. But that works both ways. If your defense is not getting three and outs, getting turnovers, or controlling field position than it also can cripple an offensive YPP.

But there is also another key way for a defense to lower their YPP. Don't give up TDs. Keep the other teams to field goals and you will drastically improve you defensive YPP. By 42% per drive!!

4. And that's not reality anyway. Our defense does get force fumble recoveries. It also stops teams from scoring. It also gets interceptions when the other QB throws them. It also gets fumbles when the other offense fumbles. Just against Atlanta you saw where their offense only had 7 possessions while our offense had 10. Our offense got more tries.

But they don't get any turnovers. Whether the other teams offense gives them to us or we force them, the fact is, for whatever reason we ain't getting them. Therefore it is effecting our offensive YPP because A) we are having to travel further for points and B) we are not getting any defensive touchdowns to pad offensive YPP the way a team like Cincy has done.

5. Our defense is not primarily responsible for field position. Our special teams offense is. Our defense can only directly you get you good field position if they get a takeaway. They are not primarily responsible for those either. The other team's offense is. Those are made up of a league average 0.5 forced fumble recoveries + 1 offensive giveaway = 1.5 takeaways(league average). A giveaway is primarily made up of interceptions, followed by fumbles, followed by forced fumble recoveries. A true takeaway is a forced fumble recovery. Some people may argue a batted ball that leads to an interception is also a true takeaway, but that's not how the NFL sees it. Because a batted ball that goes up in the air more often

I just wholly disagree with this. You are trying to alleviate any responsibility from the defense for field position. That is not based in reality. Defense doesn't get a pass just because "the other team has to punt and therefore field position is solely the responsibility of the return team." Basic logic will tell you that if an opponent punts from the 50 yard line, generally speaking, your offense will have worse field position than if the other team punts from the 25. Especially in the NFL where even bad punters are really good. And since our defensive DSR is so poor and our defense is ranked 30th in yards allowed per drive (36.47) that is exactly what is happening.