Dispelling the new myth about our offense and defense

[chef17]

Special teams is SEPARATED into offense and defense. Your kicker, FG unit, + your PR unit = offense. Everyone else on special teams = defense. Again YPP offense takes only the offensive side of a team into consideration.

And a defense can only HELP, not hurt, your offenses efficiency. Your special teams own offense can hurt your offense's efficiency.

Your offense can only HURT your defense's efficiency. Your special teams defense can only hurt themselves.

If a defense catches a pick at the 7 yard line and the offense runs a 7 yard TD the offense has a YPP of 1 correct? But the reason for that is because where the defense gave them the ball.

[jamieboy]

If a defense catches a pick at the 7 yard line and the offense runs a 7 yard TD the offense has a YPP of 1 correct? But the reason for that is because where the defense gave them the ball.

YES! So a defense can only help, not hurt your offense's ypp. But you are looking at something that happens far less frequent than what an offense does: go down field and scores. That accounts for about ~10% of your YPP. Same for your punt returner. Your kicker actually has a bigger effect on your ypp than a pick 6. The rest is all your offense.

Your own offense can make your own defense look like poo in PPG by doing exactly what you described. Which is what's happening. And since interceptions and fumbles are considered a part of your opponent's responsibility, it's actually also offense, not your own, but your opponents, that affects how often that happens. Which is exactly what is says here:

http://pantherstalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=14.0

So you have the false illusion that our defense is bad because its ranked low in PPG. We're actually 18th. But if our O finished the games, we'd be ranked higher. Probably 13th or so. The other most important stat that hurts PPG is who scores last. If your offense scores last, and you-shock-get the winning points like we should have in our 14 come back winning drives, your defense is going to be ranked higher in PPG.

It amazes me how many Carolina Panthers fans, freaking Cardiac Cat fans, don't know why an average quarterback like Jake Delhomme was absolutely king for this team and made the Superbowl.

By the end of 2008 Jake Delhomme led the league in comeback wins. Ahead of even Bret Farve who played 3 times as long in the NFL. How can you guys not give a poo about come back wins when it's what this franchise KNOWN FOR?

[teeray]

YES! So a defense can only help, not hurt your offense's ypp.

This is so far false it makes my head hurt.

If your defense can't get 3 and outs, create turnovers, or keep the other team from scoring, forcing your offense to consistently drive 80/90 yards for points the defense is directly influential on PPY in a negative manner.

With the new kickoff rules special teams has less influence on field position than ever before.

Geebus!! :nonod:

[teeray]

If a defense catches a pick at the 7 yard line and the offense runs a 7 yard TD the offense has a YPP of 1 correct? But the reason for that is because where the defense gave them the ball.

Yes which means that a 7 yard TD drive created by your defense is 10x more valuable to PPY than a 70 yard TD drive.

If you want to see how defense and special teams can mask an offensive PPY look at my above post about Cincy over the last 4 games. Their offense has not been that good at all but their PPY is through the roof!!

[jks85]

a defense can affect an offense's ypp by playing well/poorly, which affects playcalling, esp late in games

[chef17]

YES! So a defense can only help, not hurt your offense's ypp. But you are looking at something that happens far less frequent than what an offense does: go down field and scores. That accounts for about ~10% of your YPP. Same for your punt returner. Your kicker actually has a bigger effect on your ypp than a pick 6. The rest is all your offense.

Your own offense can make your own defense look like poo in PPG by doing exactly what you described. Which is what's happening. And since interceptions and fumbles are considered a part of your opponent's responsibility, it's actually also offense, not your own, but your opponents, that affects how often that happens. Which is exactly what is says here:

http://pantherstalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=14.0

So you have the false illusion that our defense is bad because its ranked low in PPG. We're actually 18th. But if our O finished the games, we'd be ranked higher. Probably 13th or so. The other most important stat that hurts PPG is who scores last. If your offense scores last, and you-shock-get the winning points like we should have in our 14 come back winning drives, your defense is going to be ranked higher in PPG.

It amazes me how many Carolina Panthers fans, freaking Cardiac Cat fans, don't know why an average quarterback like Jake Delhomme was absolutely king for this team and made the Superbowl.

By the end of 2008 Jake Delhomme led the league in comeback wins. Ahead of even Bret Farve who played 3 times as long in the NFL. How can you guys not give a poo about come back wins when it's what this franchise KNOWN FOR?

You are once again arguing a point I was never making. I never said anything about the defense being bad. You said

Again YPP offense takes only the offensive side of a team into consideration.

If the defense can help the offense YPP than it does not only take into consideration the offensive side.

[jamieboy]

This is so far false it makes my head hurt.

If your defense can't get 3 and outs, create turnovers, or keep the other team from scoring, forcing your offense to consistently drive 80/90 yards for points the defense is directly influential on PPY in a negative manner.

Geebus!! :nonod:

You have got to stop. You do not understand how the flow of the game works man. Just put away stats. What bothers me about you, is you keep telling me I'm false when you keep proving yourself false, over and over and over and over. At least other people ask questions and debate. You just keep owning yourself.

But really which one of those is a direct influence?

Our D is one of the best in the league at creating turnovers and recovering them! We were tied for 5th as of last week. When we play again, we will go back up.

Your offense's turnover on the other hand has a direct influence on your defense's PPG.

Your defense's ability to create turnovers is a DIRECT measurement of your opponent's Quarterback interceptions/pass attempt ratio and how good they are at forcing fumble recoveries.

Your D cannot "create" an interception. They can try to force one by hurrying or pass rushing but it can only happen if the other quarterback also is stupid and throws a bad pass.

You have heard the phrase: "Perfect throw beats perfect coverage every time", right?

So if most turnovers are interceptions, who the heck is responsible for them? A defense? Think. Game logic. Football. Knowing the game.

You think the rules of the game change just because your defense takes the field? Or does your perspective of it change?

[jamieboy]

You are once again arguing a point I was never making. I never said anything about the defense being bad. You said

If the defense can help the offense YPP than it does not only take into consideration the offensive side.

Because a pick six is also called defensive scoring! When you have the ball, your defender becomes an offensive player. Again, logic. And again, my initial phrase was either your offense, or the offense of the other team. Because defenses have a higher chance of getting picks if they're also playing against a QB who's known to throw a lot of them.

Just like when your quarterback throws a pick, your offense is playing what? DEFENSE! You don't think about that do you?

[panthers55]

People who know me also know that I like stats and use them all the time for my arguments. On the other hand you can take stats and analyze them to such a degree that you fail to grasp that this is a game which is totally interactive. The defense is dependent on the offense and vice versa. Special teams sets up both the offense or defense or sinks them. Yards per point in my estimation is a stat which is useful to observe but also to view cautiously. It can be very useful when evaluated in the context of red zone efficiency, penalties, third down efficiency, etc. Both the offense and defense are involved and need to be considered.

Seems to me that getting hung on esoteric stats like that fails to remember that the team that scores more points than it gives up in a particular game wins regardless of how good or bad the individual units are. Would you rather have a good offense and struggling defense and be 2-6 or have a decent offense and great defense and be 6-2?

[teeray]

You have got to stop. You do not understand how the flow of the game works man. Just put away stats. What bothers me about you, is you keep telling me I'm false when you keep proving yourself false, over and over and over and over. At least other people ask questions and debate. You just keep owning yourself.

But really which one of those is a direct influence?

Our D is one of the best in the league at creating turnovers and recovering them! We were tied for 5th as of last week. When we play again, we will go back up.

Your offense's turnover on the other hand has a direct influence on your defense's PPG.

Your defense's ability to create turnovers is a DIRECT measurement of your opponent's Quarterback interceptions/pass attempt ratio and how good they are at forcing fumble recoveries.

Your D cannot "create" an interception. They can try to force one by hurrying or pass rushing but it can only happen if the other quarterback also is stupid and throws a bad pass.

You have heard the phrase: "Perfect throw beats perfect coverage every time", right?

So if most turnovers are interceptions, who the heck is responsible for them? A defense? Think. Game logic. Football. Knowing the game.

You think the rules of the game change just because your defense takes the field? Or does your perspective of it change?

They are 5th in the league in recovering fumbles. We are 28th in the league in creating turnovers. I know that you don't think that pass rush, breaking on the ball, disguising coverages, tipped balls at the line of scrimmage, etc. have anything to do with interceptions. Thus proving how far you are reaching.

But the fact is our defense in 28th in creating turnovers for whatever reason. Maybe it is just bad luck. After all many of the QBs we have faced have had propensities for throwing interceptions against other opponents like Matt Ryan (9), Drew Brees, (11), Kevin Kolb (8), Jay Cutler (only 6 but has a history), John Beck (4, in like 4 games). I Guess they are only make "dumb" mistakes against other teams.

Our offense on the other hand is 12th in the league in turnovers with only 12. Better than 70% of the league. Pretty darn good.

[jamieboy]

Let me put it very simple. If our schedule included playing against: Phillip Rivers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, and other guys like Cam Newton such as Josh Freeman which we will, our defense would probably be ranked 1st in the league in takeaways.

Considering our defense is also one of the best at creating turnovers.

Heck add fumbles in there and get you an even better schedule and you can guarantee your defense to be 1st in takeaways.

But it still would not affect our O's red-zone issues and 4th quarter problems. Because most of those guys are really good in comeback winning drives.

[teeray]

Let me put it very simple. If our schedule included playing against: Phillip Rivers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, and other guys like Cam Newton such as Josh Freeman which we will, our defense would probably be ranked 1st in the league in takeaways.

Considering our defense is also one of the best at creating turnovers.

Heck add fumbles in there and get you an even better schedule and you can guarantee your defense to be 1st in takeaways.

But it still would not affect our O's red-zone issues and 4th quarter problems. Because most of those guys are really good in comeback winning drives.

Many of the QBs we have faced have had propensities for throwing interceptions against other opponents like Matt Ryan (9), Drew Brees, (11), Kevin Kolb (8), Jay Cutler (only 6 but has a history), John Beck (4, in like 4 games). I Guess they are only making "dumb" mistakes against other teams.

But cool argument bro.

[-13 Amp-]

the fact that he thinks interceptions are ONLY the offenses fault is retarded...defenses practice tip drills for a reason...and god forbid a DB make a good play...

[4Corners]

You have got to stop. You do not understand how the flow of the game works man. Just put away stats. What bothers me about you, is you keep telling me I'm false when you keep proving yourself false, over and over and over and over. At least other people ask questions and debate. You just keep owning yourself.

But really which one of those is a direct influence?

Our D is one of the best in the league at creating turnovers and recovering them! We were tied for 5th as of last week. When we play again, we will go back up.

Your offense's turnover on the other hand has a direct influence on your defense's PPG.

Your defense's ability to create turnovers is a DIRECT measurement of your opponent's Quarterback interceptions/pass attempt ratio and how good they are at forcing fumble recoveries.

Your D cannot "create" an interception. They can try to force one by hurrying or pass rushing but it can only happen if the other quarterback also is stupid and throws a bad pass.

You have heard the phrase: "Perfect throw beats perfect coverage every time", right?

So if most turnovers are interceptions, who the heck is responsible for them? A defense? Think. Game logic. Football. Knowing the game.

You think the rules of the game change just because your defense takes the field? Or does your perspective of it change?

how many times has this guy been banned?