Dispelling the new myth about our offense and defense

[chef17]

Really?

YPP(yards per point) is separated into two: offense and defense.

This is offense: http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-point

Those numbers are in fact offense-only YPP. Total offense.

And YPP, yards per play, or in others words "total defense" you will find at NFL.com. We are ranked 18th.

This is what makes guys like you confuse yourself with numbers. A defense can't get you an interception. Remember? An offense can give you one. The other team's that is. YPP takes care of takeaways though. It also takes care of field position. And yes a team's special team can improve it.

Because who is responsible for field position? Not your defense like most dumbasses keep thinking: special teams an the other team's offense or quarterback.

They are broken down:

Special Teams Offense:http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/special-teams-defense-category

Specifal Teams Defense:http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/special-teams-defense-category

And yes, it is a better indicator of your team's offense because YPP =

Offense + Special Team's offense = TOTAL offense.

Defense + Special Team's defense = TOTAL defense.

Defense has to catch it.

[mav1234]

YPP doesn't even make sense as the primary metric for an offense... I mean, how is it that if your defense recovers a fumble on your opponents 5 yard line and you offense runs it in, that 5 yard touchdown was better than, say, a 95 yard TD drive? It's almost... the opposite of what is the case, because the 95 yard TD drive keeps the other team off the field longer generally etc. Obviously not always the case but yeah. I dunno, just seems like YPP loses all context to games in order to try to create one meaningful stat that really isn't all that meaningful without the context...

also over the course of a season it could be useful as it would suggest some things about a team, but YPP over more than a given drive is not just a metric of offense alone anyway, it is also a metric that represents special teams and defense... calling it "efficiency" is fine but it's more than just offensive efficiency. It's scoring efficiency, which involves FAR more than just the offense.

[The_Mango55]

Really?

YPP(yards per point) is separated into two: offense and defense.

This is offense: http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-point

Those numbers are in fact offense-only YPP. Total offense.

And YPP, yards per play, or in others words "total defense" you will find at NFL.com. We are ranked 18th.

This is what makes guys like you confuse yourself with numbers. A defense can't get you an interception. Remember? An offense can give you one. The other team's that is. YPP takes care of takeaways though. It also takes care of field position. And yes a team's special team can improve it.

Because who is responsible for field position? Not your defense like most dumbasses keep thinking: special teams an the other team's offense or quarterback.

They are broken down:

Special Teams Offense:http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/special-teams-defense-category

Specifal Teams Defense:http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/special-teams-defense-category

And yes, it is a better indicator of your team's offense because YPP =

Offense + Special Team's offense = TOTAL offense.

Defense + Special Team's defense = TOTAL defense.

I think I'll trust coldhardfootballfacts more than some gambling site.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/2_986_Scoreability_Index.html

Remember, the Scoreability Index is not merely an offensive indicator! It is a team-wide measurement of ability to turn yards into points. It takes into account a variety of factors (including proficiency of defense and special teams, red zone offense, and turnover differential) and then spits it all out in an easy-to-understand number. Other measures of offense, and offensive efficiency, look at the offensive unit in a vacuum. We do not care how a unit plays in a fantasy-football vacuum because in real football games teams do not play in a vacuum. Instead, our Quality Stats give you insight into the many complex, interacting factors that go into team-wide success.

Scoreability is obtained this way: Offensive Yards/Total Points Scored = Yards Per Point Scored (YPPS). The lower the number, the more efficiently a team scores points.

And what's this garbage about a defense not being able to get you an interception? If one defense has players that can make great plays on a ball and another D doesn't, where does that leave your "argument"?

Are you saying the jets might as well have Capt Munnerlyn instead of Revis, since both are just "taking what the QB gives them"

[The_Mango55]

Frankly it's fuging insulting that you are disregarding defense like this and saying they can't help you get field position or turnovers. Compare the field position a team would get if the D stopped the opponent at the 20 vs what you would get if the D let them get to their own 40.

Say to Ray Lewis's face that he won the superbowl because Trent Dilfer led his team with such an efficient YPP average.

I'll call 911 for you afterwards.

[-13 Amp-]

that Tampa Bay Superbowl team would like to have a talk with you as well...

[ShawnJohn]

YPP doesn't even make sense as the primary metric for an offense... I mean, how is it that if your defense recovers a fumble on your opponents 5 yard line and you offense runs it in, that 5 yard touchdown was better than, say, a 95 yard TD drive? It's almost... the opposite of what is the case, because the 95 yard TD drive keeps the other team off the field longer generally etc. Obviously not always the case but yeah. I dunno, just seems like YPP loses all context to games in order to try to create one meaningful stat that really isn't all that meaningful without the context...

also over the course of a season it could be useful as it would suggest some things about a team, but YPP over more than a given drive is not just a metric of offense alone anyway, it is also a metric that represents special teams and defense... calling it "efficiency" is fine but it's more than just offensive efficiency. It's scoring efficiency, which involves FAR more than just the offense.

YPP tells you scoring efficiency. I mean, what more do you need to know? It's a recapping stat just like all the others. And much better than looking at Yards. 6th in yards clearly means nothing.

YPP takes everything into consideration. It doesn't break down every single possible scenario for you though it certainly accounts for it at the end of the day. And it doesn't say whether that touchdown was better or not. It doesn't describe individual plays. Neither does 6th in yards.

It's simply better than saying 6th ranked offense because of yards. It says nothing about that team's scoring ability. It says nothing about how many times they have to throw to get the yards and how many mistakes are taking place. It says nothing about their special teams offense. It says nothing about winning. It says nothing about red-zone efficiency. It says nothing about turnovers. It says nothing bout time of possession. It says nothing about field position like you just said. It says nothing about how efficient an offense is at turning yards into points. It says nothing about each player's ability to score. It says nothing about the other team's defense. Nothing about schedule. But YPP does. That's what YPP says. It turns yards into points. Scoring efficiency.

It's just a starting point. It's accurate enough to freaking see that every team with a high YPP and turnover margin, or as I described it an efficient offense, has a winning record except 1 who is tied. I don't know what more "proof" than that you need.

But you can go beyond that if you want. You can factor in time of possession, factor in clutch stats, whatever to hone it down to the exact number. I'm not going to do all that cause I tried that and it just gets crapped on around here.

The better question is, don't you care more about the fact it has a direct correlation to winning ? Isn't that what's important? Cause I already did things like that already and broke down Cam's 4th quarter stats to the T. Even included sacks. I'll just recap it for you.

-68.0 QB in the 4th in comeback winning or game winning drives and a completion right at or under 50% . That certainly = offense inefficiency.

-1 for 14 4th quarter possessions. This is not just offense inefficiency but anti-win.

-21st ranked scoring efficient offense and it gets worse when you factor schedule and - turnover margin - Almost anti-win.

-Seeing it with your own eyes how our games are ending.

-Seeing so many other teams with high powered offenses winning in spite of low ranked defenses: GB, New Englands, The Saints....etc

A defense cannot fix that and turn all that into winning no matter who they are. Sorry, but it's impossible. You're going to be in close games with a "top 10" defense which is hardly what you should look at when you wanna find out if you have a "top 10" defense anyway but it IS more accurate than yards for offense.

But you're going to have turnovers no matter where your D is ranked on yards. You're still going to have negative turnover margin like the Steelers are showing that they can't make up for, though ours can. You're going to have injuries. You're going to have big plays given up. You're going to have penalties. You're going to have all of these other issues we have.

We had John Fox for 10 years....his number one thing was what? Turnovers. But everybody knows this or knew this before Cam Newton. We benched Moore for Christ's sake because he threw a pick in the end zone at the end of the game last year twice. Nobody was blaming that on the defense. We knew whose fault it was. John fox wasn't old school in the turnovers department. He knew what the hell he was talking about there.

[Cj72]

Good grief man, thats a whole lot of typing just so you can blame the offense!!! Just think, all i had to do was watch every game to figure out that the defense is mostly the problem......

[mav1234]

YPP tells you scoring efficiency. I mean, what more do you need to know? It's a recapping stat just like all the others. And much better than looking at Yards. 6th in yards clearly means nothing....

YPP takes everything into consideration...

It's just a starting point. It's accurate enough to freaking see that every team with a high YPP and turnover margin, or as I described it an efficient offense, has a winning record except 1 who is tied. I don't know what more "proof" than that you need.

I have no problem with YPP as a stat one could use to look at how teams are doing (though I do think that it, like any single stat, loses context completely alone). I have a problem with looking at YPP and concluding "Our offense is inefficient," because as you so eloquently stated, YPP takes everything into consideration. Everything includes offense and defense and special teams. It is heavily influenced by field position, which the offense has a role in, but so too do special teams and defense (and I would argue more of a role). As in my previous example, a team which starts on it's opponents 5 yard line and scores a touchdown every drive is going to have a pretty darn high YPP, but you mean to tell me that the offense is solely responsible for that? It's not... That field position was created by something. There's a reason that announcers go gaga over 80+ yard TD drives... because they are special things due to their difficulty. Yet it's what we ask our offense to do on nearly every drive... What our YPP tells us is not that our offense sucks or is inefficient, it tells us that we have to go more yards to score compared to many other winning teams...

We benched Moore for Christ's sake because he threw a pick in the end zone at the end of the game last year twice. Nobody was blaming that on the defense. We knew whose fault it was. John fox wasn't old school in the turnovers department. He knew what the hell he was talking about there.

This is an oversimplification of why Moore was benched, and I would hope you would realize by now that the very fact we went back to Moore after the bye signifies that it was far more than that.

[teeray]

Let me tell you why you should take YPP with a grain of salt.

Some of you know that I do a bit of gambling to supplement my income (right now it is virtually my sole income :lol:).

One method for gambling that many people use (including myself at times) is a method some people call the "Total Dudley Method". In a nutshell it is a calculation of each team's last 4 games using offensive and defensive YPP to predict the score of a game. If you find large discrepancies (generally @5 points) in the predicted score from the Vegas spread you make the bet.

Well I was doing some work today for the games on Sunday and I came to the Cincinnati/Pittsburgh game.

After doing the calculations the predicted score using YPP was Cincy 25 Pitt 18.5. The Vegas spread has Pitt favored by 3. So you are looking at a total difference of 9.5 points between the spread and the YPP score!!! Normally this would be a GREAT bet and I would feel comfortable putting a large chunk of my bankroll on Cincy.

But I am still leaning toward taking Pitt or passing on the game altogether. Why? Because I don't just go by those numbers I do a bit more research and I found that Cincy's offense just isn't as good as their YPP would suggest.

For one their third down efficiency isn't that great. Secondly, they have had a propensity for not having sustained drives but happen to get big plays (not a bad thing but you just don't see that many sustained drives). Also they have several special team and defensive touchdowns.

Against Seattle they only had 256 yards of offense and scored 34 points. That is because they had a punt return for a TD and a defensive TD.

Against Jacksonville they had only 239 yards of offense and only 13 first downs but still scored 30 points. But they had a defensive TD, and 2 TD drives that started at the 50 yard line or better. One started on Jax's 28 yard line after Jackosnville's punter kicked a booming 22 yard punt and there was a personal foul against Jax tacked on the end play as well.

Plus the last 4 games for Cincy has been against pretty weak teams which I take into account as well.

So YPP can be useful but should be taken with a grain of salt. It doesn't always paint an accurate picture of what an offense or defense is doing.

[jks85]

guess i don't read the forum closely enough, didn't think anyone thought our offense was the problem. problem a decent litmus test for who to tune out

[jamieboy]

I have no problem with YPP as a stat one could use to look at how teams are doing (though I do think that it, like any single stat, loses context completely alone). I have a problem with looking at YPP and concluding "Our offense is inefficient," because as you so eloquently stated, YPP takes everything into consideration. Everything includes offense and defense and special teams. It is heavily influenced by field position, which the offense has a role in, but so too do special teams and defense (and I would argue more of a role). As in my previous example, a team which starts on it's opponents 5 yard line and scores a touchdown every drive is going to have a pretty darn high YPP, but you mean to tell me that the offense is solely responsible for that? It's not... That field position was created by something. There's a reason that announcers go gaga over 80+ yard TD drives... because they are special things due to their difficulty. Yet it's what we ask our offense to do on nearly every drive... What our YPP tells us is not that our offense sucks or is inefficient, it tells us that we have to go more yards to score compared to many other winning teams...

This is an oversimplification of why Moore was benched, and I would hope you would realize by now that the very fact we went back to Moore after the bye signifies that it was far more than that.

Ypp is separated into offense and defense. Two different numbers. Ypp for the offense takes everything the offense does into consideration. So you only look at yards per point of your offense. I ranked them by offensive ypp only.

yards per point for the offense. (offense + offensive special teams=total offense)

Two different things. YPP for the offense only takes into consideration offensive efficiency so yeah you can use it just fine for the offense cause it's an offensive measurement, not a defensive one.

yards per play for the defense. This is a different stat. And it ranks teams completely differently.

There is also yards per point for defense, and it is also a separate number, also ranks teams completely different but it's far less useful when looking at total defense. It's defense scoring allowing efficiency. All that says is how efficient your opponents total offense is. Whether or not your defense is ranked high or low on this stat has almost everything to do with, not just your opponent's offense, but turnovers from your offense.

There is also yards per play for the offense. We are VERY good in this stat. Our offense is actually ranked 4th. We're one of the most efficient offenses when it comes to getting yards. But again, this is something that doesn't take into consideration your ability to score points the most important part of the offense.

So think about that...we're 4th in yards efficiency. 21st in scoring efficiency. Actually I take it back. I honestly don't think there is a team that drops 17 rankings between these two so we are the worst offense in the league when it comes to offense efficiency. THE WORST. Especially when you consider our offense has faced some of the worst defenses. I don't even need to pull it up. There's no way there's another team in the NFL that drops 17 spots between these two categories.

[chef17]

Ypp is separated into offense and defense. Two different numbers. Ypp for the offense takes everything the offense does into consideration. So you only look at yards per point of your offense. I ranked them by offensive ypp only.

yards per point for the offense. (offense + offensive special teams=total offense)

Two different things. YPP for the offense only takes into consideration offensive efficiency so yeah you can use it just fine for the offense cause it's an offensive measurement, not a defensive one.

yards per play for the defense. This is a different stat. And it ranks teams completely differently.

There is also yards per point for defense, and it is also a separate number, also ranks teams completely different but it's far less useful when looking at total defense. It's defense scoring allowing efficiency. All that says is how efficiency was your opponents were scoring against your D. Whether or not your defense is ranked high or low on this stat has almost everything to do with, not just your opponent's offense, but turnovers from your offense.

There is also yards per play for the offense. We are VERY good in this stat. Our offense is actually ranked 4th. We're one of the most efficient offenses when it comes to getting yards. But again, this is something that doesn't take into consideration your ability to score points the most important part of the offense.

So think about that...we're 4th in yards efficiency. 21st in scoring efficiency. Actually I take it back. I honestly don't think there is a team that drops 17 rankings between these two so we are the worst offense in the league when it comes to efficiency. THE WORST. Especially when you consider our offense has faced some of the worst defenses. I don't even need to pull it up. There's no way there's another team in the NFL that drops 17 spots between these two categories.

It takes into account field position which is influenced by defense and special teams so it can't be an only offensive stat.

[rayzor]

in before the ban hammer swings and knocks this alt out

Ypp is separated into offense and defense. Two different numbers. Ypp for the offense takes everything the offense does into consideration. So you only look at yards per point of your offense. I ranked them by offensive ypp only.

yards per point for the offense. (offense + offensive special teams=total offense)

Two different things. YPP for the offense only takes into consideration offensive efficiency so yeah you can use it just fine for the offense cause it's an offensive measurement, not a defensive one.

yards per play for the defense. This is a different stat. And it ranks teams completely differently.

There is also yards per point for defense, and it is also a separate number, also ranks teams completely different but it's far less useful when looking at total defense. It's defense scoring allowing efficiency. All that says is how efficiency was your opponents were scoring against your D. Whether or not your defense is ranked high or low on this stat has almost everything to do with, not just your opponent's offense, but turnovers from your offense.

There is also yards per play for the offense. We are VERY good in this stat. Our offense is actually ranked 4th. We're one of the most efficient offenses when it comes to getting yards. But again, this is something that doesn't take into consideration your ability to score points the most important part of the offense.

So think about that...we're 4th in yards efficiency. 21st in scoring efficiency. Actually I take it back. I honestly don't think there is a team that drops 17 rankings between these two so we are the worst offense in the league when it comes to efficiency. THE WORST. Especially when you consider our offense has faced some of the worst defenses. I don't even need to pull it up. There's no way there's another team in the NFL that drops 17 spots between these two categories.

[jamieboy]

It takes into account field position which is influenced by defense and special teams so it can't be an only offensive stat.

Special teams is SEPARATED into offense and defense. Your kicker, FG unit, + your PR unit = offense. Everyone else on special teams = defense. Again YPP offense takes only the offensive side of a team into consideration.

And a defense can only HELP, not hurt, your offenses efficiency. Your special teams own offense can hurt your offense's efficiency.

Your offense can only HURT your defense's efficiency. Your special teams defense can only hurt themselves.