Merril hodge says cam newton a top 5 qb right now.

[CRA]

The reality is you have to look at a lot of factors, and not just go by the numbers. For the amount Cam is throwing, 9 interceptions is not abnormally high. I'd even argue that for the amount he's throwing as a rookie, that's a pretty low number.

You also have to look at the type throws Cam is being asked to make.....he leads the NFL in attempts and completions 20 yards + down field. What Cam is being asked to do is literally night and day different than say Bradford last year (who relatively made only easy throws all season).

[Pantherball]

wow way to misrepresent what I said.

I've said he's played incredibly well for a rookie and if we want wins, we're better off right now with getting defense/special teams shored up than hoping our rookie-playing-great turns into an (even more) elite QB half way through the season because he's already playing pretty darn well and all things considered (like field position) our offense is putting up decent points in most games.

Not sayng he can't be elite or GOAT or whatever stupid poo people want to say, I'm saying he needs some help from our other units this season if we want to win consistently, because asking our offense to do it alone is ridiculous. And yes, putting up 30+ points while the other team matches you score for score is asking our offense to do it alone.

Also, I seem to recall you saying that Cam either has to have no turnovers every game OR has to put up 30+ points every game for us to win... Then just said "all he has to do is play like he did against Washington every week!"... Maybe it isn't perfection to ask that a rookie quarterback have 0 turnovers every week or if he throws an INT put up 30 points, but that's pretty freaking close considering the offenses that are averaging those numbers. I'm just asking him to keep improving, while we fix the gigantic motherfuging holes the rest of the team has... Our offense is not our problem. It is not perfect, but it's not losing us games... whereas defense and special teams more certainly are.

Look, you just acknowledged I said either or. So it doesn't mean perfection. He can have more than 2 turn-overs, if we can score more than 30 points which is what I said before to. And I think I have shown a lot of other things as well since then. But what I said last week applies against the Vikings as well. He got 2 turnovers, we didn't get 30. We lost. It fit right in. End of that story. I'm also realizing now why we can't get those damn 30 and a lot of it has to do with what happens to him in the 4th quarter.

But honestly I can't take you guy seriously when we have 7 of our 8 games within 1 score or tied in the 4th quarter and we only do it one time against Jacksonville despite that overall Cam and this offense has had 14 possessions in that time and you say it's not the offense. 1 out of 14 possessions to win the game in the 4th quarter, and we can't get even 3 points more than once unless it's in the rain against Jacksonville and we start midfield. When we have another 400 yard day in total offense, end it with failed red-zone possessions and only put up 21 points.....and it's not the offense?

If you don't see how not being able to score points on comeback or game winning drives in 6 games, when you can't win them without scoring points, is an offensive issue, I am honestly just at a loss of words at this point.

And mav think about what you are saying before saying he's not getting any help. Is he really not getting help or is he trying to do it all himself because maybe because he wants to and perhaps because we have to. But I don't think it's because our other players are not capable or contributing just as much. I mean he has a #1 receiver which I believe has made Cam look good as much as Cam has made him, he's got a couple of pretty good tight ends, he's getting guys learning how to play secondary roles in this offense in order to block for him or run this pistol formation, which is reminiscent of college formations.

And there's more to it than that....but I'm exhausted. You're a smart dude. You'll figure some of this out I'm sure. Just start putting the two and two together. Sacks, holding. turnovers, his playing late when close or down. Steve's yards vs Steve's number of TD's.

Some of this adds up because the numbers are directly related, and other things add up because the numbers are inversely related. And they are all doing just that. It's not just one thing that's leading us to losing, but it is a lot of the things he does combined throughout 60 minutes that does have a significant effect week in and week out and so far...they're the same exact thing since week 1 and they're working against him at the end of the game.

And no I don't think Cam's entirely to blame, but he's the center piece and perhaps there's something to the idea of trying to build an offense around Cam's style, and maybe we're not doing it quite right and it's also not allowing Cam to concentrate on the basics. Maybe we need to get better at getting those passing yards by pass in those tight red-zone instances, and let Cam specialize in passing for awhile instead of being all over the place. When you're thinking run option on every play, you're holding on to the ball to long, and dumping it off just short of first downs with receivers ready to be wrapped up...I think something's wrong there. And he's not getting them by rush or yards. I doubt those plays are designed that way. I know for sure timing is very important in throwing the ball in those situations, and that's gotta be all over the damn place when he's doing this one minute, doing that, the next.

Anyway....I'm tired, I'm sleepy, and I'm starting to ramble so I'm going to bed. You guys have a good night. We'll talk about it more some other time.

[HoFBound90]

I'm noticing a trend of retarded people who have joined after September,

[CRA]

Try to pretend like the dudes in the locker room weren't pissed at Mare?

no more than they were a defense that made Ponder look like Peyton Manning on his 3rd and long attempts the entire game......nor more than the offense that did little in the 2nd half (especially the 3rd q).

in the NFL, stopping and rattling a rookie QB like Ponder in all those 3rd and long situations is every bit as easy as hitting a 31 yarder.......

Sure Mare should of hit that kick.....D should of stopped Ponder a ton of times and given us good field position, offense should of done something in the 2nd half.......

Mare didn't lose that game.....that game was lost over 4 quarters. Plenty of blame to go around. Too easy to pick the last play/drive of the game. Sure, they got fault for not doing there job....but other jobs not being done were just as costly....if not more so

[Camdemonium]

So Ponder has now gone from having an average day to looking like Peyton Manning

:lol:

And no, they aren't the same level of difficulty.

fug I love the Huddle.

[edromeo]

Didn't you just tell me not to compare him to vets?

lol, I didn't.

But, if I did you could just quote, right? That way you could avoid creating a strawmen argument eh?

Anyway the reason I did what I did, is because I am not comparing one statistical category to another outside of Cam Newton's overall playing.

What a crock.

You used 28th in interceptions instead of simply writng the actual number amount because to you saying '28th in interceptions looks' worse.

Why not add the context of the other QBs by listing the other QBs ranked ahead and below him? It doesn't seem nearly as bad when Brady is 24th in interceptions or Brees is 31st.

A QB who is ranked 28th in interceptions...~[spurious non-sense so slanted toward creating a negative view point it borders on absurdity]

lol love it '28th ranked in interceptions'

In short Cam because Cam isn't perfect he's not good enough for you.

Man, you really think highly of Cam and you know what?

I respect you for that.

[CRA]

So Ponder has now gone from having an average day to looking like Peyton Manning

:lol:

And no, they aren't the same level of difficulty.

fug I love the Huddle.

Ponder didn't even know how to run the plays....he had too many busted plays for me to even count. Issue was what the D let occur on 3rd and long. Pathetic.

3rd and 7 - completed

3rd and 10 - completed

3rd and 10 - completed

3rd and 9 - completed

3rd and 6 - completed

3rd and 15 completed

A rookie like Ponder who clearly was flustered w/ the playcalls.....the Panther D made look like Manning on 3rd down plays. That is sad. Those were scenarios our D should of been able to captialize on.....generate field position or turnovers. Instead they gave him wideopen throws to recieving targets with little pressure....and vanilla looks.

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

The whole "not clutch" or "can't lead game winning drives" thing is overstated, especially when discussing a rookie. We're talking about a ridiculously small sample size.

I mean seriously does nobody remember when Manning and Brees were considered chokers? Nobody remembers Sean Payton's playcalling blunders in 07/08? That Brees had very few fourth quarter comebacks with the Saints in 06/07/08 was a topic brought up frequently here a few years back.

[Stroupe-a-loop]

The whole "not clutch" or "can't lead game winning drives" thing is overstated, especially when discussing a rookie. We're talking about a ridiculously small sample size.

I mean seriously does nobody remember when Manning and Brees were considered chokers? Nobody remembers Sean Payton's playcalling blunders in 07/08? That Brees had either very few or no fourth quarter comebacks with the Saints was a statistic brought up frequently here a few years back.

Right, Aaron Rodgers was terrible in one score games his first year as a starter, and it didn't seem to effect his career much. And he had been in the league a few years in the league before he had to start.

It's not even that he's "unclutch". He lead us down field late in the Cardinals, Green Bay, Jacksonville, Washington, and Minny games and got us into chip shot field goal territory. It just so happens that we needed touchdowns or missed the field goal in three of those games.

He needs to continue to work on his game in the redzone, but that is seriously one of the last things that comes to a young quarterback.

I think it sucks we are losing games, and I'm not trying to lay everything at the defense's and S/T's feet because they have legitimate reasons to struggle, but which is more likely: we have a rookie quarterback play like a top 5 guy from here on out, or our defensive minded head coach gets the defense play like a unit ranked in the top 2/3s of the league?

[Pantherball]

The whole "not clutch" or "can't lead game winning drives" thing is overstated, especially when discussing a rookie. We're talking about a ridiculously small sample size.

I mean seriously does nobody remember when Manning and Brees were considered chokers? Nobody remembers Sean Payton's playcalling blunders in 07/08? That Brees had either very few or no fourth quarter comebacks with the Saints was a topic brought up frequently here a few years back.

Half a season is not a small sample size when 7 out of 8 games are like this. It's half a season.

And personally I never stopped considering Peyton Manning a choker. Peyton's had a lot of 4th quarter comebacks, but he's the choke master himself in the playoffs and one ref team away from never winning a Superbowl. His little brother is more clutch than him. That's why the one thing I liked about Cam is that he mentions Brady more than Manning.

You guys would be happy with 11 winning seasons and only one Superbowl win? You only have to beat 2 or 3 teams to reach the bowl. You should be able to do better than 1 out of 11. And you should be able to do better than 1 out of 7.

I would never want to be like the Colts. I wouldn't want to be like Miami and Dan Marino either. But I get that some people think winning isn't a quarterback responsibility and I do.

[Pantherball]

lol, I didn't.

But, if I did you could just quote, right? That way you could avoid creating a strawmen argument eh?

What a crock.

You used 28th in interceptions instead of simply writng the actual number amount because to you saying '28th in interceptions looks' worse.

Why not add the context of the other QBs by listing the other QBs ranked ahead and below him? It doesn't seem nearly as bad when Brady is 24th in interceptions or Brees is 31st.

lol love it '28th ranked in interceptions'

In short Cam because Cam isn't perfect he's not good enough for you.

Man, you really think highly of Cam and you know what?

I respect you for that.

Because it says nothing. You came in at the end of a very long conversation.

Cam's also the TOP rusher in the league and he leads the league in rushing TD's. He's also currently number 2 in yards. See? I can do that. And I have done that earlier. Nobody's denying his accomplishments and I have no problem acknowledging them. But it means nothing when you compare it without context. We have only been discussing his accomplishments while ignoring other equally important things we should be discussing.

Too many people are not acknowledging the other side. Let's talk about and answer some of the tough questions. We lost 7 out of 8 games. Cam Newton's had 12 NFL games at this point in the season counting pre-season. It's not too early to have a honest discussion. Half season evaluation. So discuss the tough topics. I'll start:

1.Why does he have the most passing attempts? Is it a good thing or a bad thing when you have the most 4th quarter games down by less than 7? Or does it simply makes sense?

Why does he have just as many rushing TD's as he does passing TD's? Shouldn't he honestly be way ahead in the passing TD's category? Based on our play and this team's play this year, shouldn't his stats easily be 18TDs/8 rushing TD's, 9 Ints?

Why does the NFL's #1 receiver our receiver have 918 yards and only 4TD's? When was the last time the NFL had a receiver with 918 yards with only 4 TD's?

2.Why are we ranked top in holding but have a QB 24th ranked in sacks when we are talking about Cam's escapability every week? Why do these numbers not add up? What's going on?

3.Why are we really down in every game in the 4th quarter? Should the defense have more takeaways? Absolutely. They should. But the reason we have a negative turn-over margin is because our offense is giving up more turn-overs than they can make up for them. The reason we are down is an offensive issue first. Should we try to have a top 2-3 defense. Of course. Can the defense get better? Of course, and they will when we get some of our top guys back, but the D has not had an issue giving our team more offensive positions than the other and put them in a position to be in a tie game or down by one score in the 4th. And they gave the offense 2 possessions PER 4th quarter while maintaining a one score game/U]. That is a WIN for the defense in the NFL. The offense blew it. Not the defense. Why does his 4th quarter QB rating drop to 60.0 or under in comeback wins or game winning drives?

Every one of these questions should be at the top of this forum.

[chef17]

Half a season is not a small sample size when 7 out of 8 games are like this. It's half a season.

And personally I never stopped considering Peyton Manning a choker. Peyton's had a lot of 4th quarter comebacks, but he's the choke master himself in the playoffs and one ref team away from never winning a Superbowl. His little brother is more clutch than him. That's why the one thing I liked about Cam is that he mentions Brady more than Manning.

You guys would be happy with 11 winning seasons and only one Superbowl win? You only have to beat 2 or 3 teams to reach the bowl. You should be able to do better than 1 out of 11. And you should be able to do better than 1 out of 7.

I would never want to be like the Colts. I wouldn't want to be like Miami and Dan Marino either. But I get that some people think winning isn't a quarterback responsibility and I do.

We have what 4 winning seasons? I would take 11 winning seasons even without the Superbowl. Acting like only winning one Superbowl in 11 years isn't something to be proud of is ridiculous

[Stroupe-a-loop]

We have what 4 winning seasons? I would take 11 winning seasons even without the Superbowl. Acting like only winning one Superbowl in 11 years isn't something to be proud of is ridiculous

Even the criticism of Newton is kind of amazing. AREN'T YOU GUYS AFRAID THAT HE WILL ONLY BE PEYTON MANNING AND NOT TOM BRADY!?!?!

[klumme]

If Newton only has 11 winning seasons and 1 SB and on top of that no comeback wins in his losses... Then CUT is ass.