Merril hodge says cam newton a top 5 qb right now.

[teeray]

I don't keep up with TRD enough to know why that matters. I don't keep up with his argument style so I'm not really sure what TRD is saying but if he's doing what I am and running into guys like you I don't blame him for giving up because it's a lot man. You are and have been so stuck up this QB's ass from the day he played his first game to ever possibly look at our QB objectively again this season. Which is why you have an issue with anyone that points anything out against Cam Newton. You and a few others are not just Panthers fans. You are Cam Newton fanatics.

Which makes you far too delusional and rabid for me to ever have an intelligent conversation with, based on logic or facts because you always rely on insults when others use valid points to show you otherwise.

Some of you do this every year. Every fuging year when there's talk of a new QB. You lose it. And you lose sight of the team. You lose sight of what's important. You lose sight of winning. You lose your minds. And you tend to trash our other players and other members unfairly to make excuses for the rookie.

Nobody's over analyzing anything. Some of you are just having a hard time swallowing a simple truth so we keep arguing about it because you refuse to accept it: the guy is 1/14 in close 4th quarter games when down or tied, he's 0-6 when he turns over the ball, and he's QB rating drops in the 4th quarter to sub-par levels. There is nothing complicated about that. He has not proven the most important thing in the NFL and to us as Panther fans. The ability to overcome pressure and win the close game. And because winning is the most important thing to me as a Carolina Panthers fan, he doesn't deserve this amount of praise and blind loyalty just like Clausen didn't either last year. NOT until he proves he can do that.

Yes he's a rookie, but the problem with us winning the games has not been the defense, it's been just that: he crawls back to rookie status in the 4th because of pressure. 1/14 tries. Mental toughness brother. Raising to the occasion when the game is on the line and time is running out. That's what you want in a leader. He's not there yet. So stop blaming everyone else and realize that's the primary issue.

What you also don't realize is that all of those other things that he does has no bearing on that part and that ability. His yards, his rushing ability, his size....all of that means nothing when it comes to the ability to stand in the face of pressure and win the close game. It doesn't actually say he's going to have it some day! Other guys get there quicker. Others never make it. Time doesn't necessarily help with this either. In fact going too long without getting there makes it worse because the pressure just builds and builds. The only thing that makes you good at doing that is simply: doing it. Doing it repeatedly. I'm not passing any judgment yet on Cam Newton's ability to do this 2 years down the road. I am saying every single game we played this year was there for the taking in the 4th quarter, but he doesn't have what it takes yet to put it away. He has not figured out how to put the game away at the NFL level yet.

As far as Dalton, this is just another excuse on your part. It doesn't freaking matter who they played or how much better their defense is because he was also in the same situation like Cam where he had tied or down games in the 4th quarter. He won all 3 of them. And Cam's won 1 of 6. Andy Dalton only needed 1 chance in each of of those 3 close games to put the game away and he did! Our defense gave Cam more chances because they still managed to keep the game winnable after he failed on his first tries. But you are too freaking biased to understand this! It's like you're freaking drugged up.

Your logic breaks down when you realize the toughest defense Cam's faced this year, he ended up beating: Washington. Why? Because we were not tied or down in the 4th quarter with Washington. We went up and stayed up. Why? Because he didn't turn over the ball earlier in the game. 0-6 now when he turns over the ball and we play from behind.

Your "You are a Cam fanatic and therefore I cannot have conversation with you" bit is just a cop out. Last time we had this conversation I overloaded you with stats and you couldn't rebut them so you have reverted to saying this to mask your own deficiency in being able to back up your own arguments. And I am a Cam fan, but only because he has been great, not some blind allegiance that keeps me from being objective.

But if you want some more stats that shatters your whole point then fine here you go:

Over 4 seasons (2003-2006) Jake Delhomme had 16 come from behind wins in the 4th quarter and Peyton Manning had 12. Over that same time frame Jake had the highest playoff QB rating in NFL history.

Would it be your argument that over that period of time Jake Delhomme was a better QB than Peyton Manning?? After all he proved he could finish games better and was more clutch and better in pressure situations because of his playoff QB rating??

That is just one example of why your argument is so silly.

I just look at this thing like this. Cam has on four different occasions put us in a great position to win or tie a game on the last drive. Unfortunately to this point three of those we didn't get it done for whatever reason. But it is just a matter of time.

I don't find it compelling in the least that just because we have finished a couple of yards short in three of those games that it is any kind of proof that Cam isn't a clutch performer or a choke artist. That is asinine. If it continues over the course of several years then maybe we have that conversation. But right now it is too early to make those types of claims.

And when you try to declare it as indisputable with only a small sample it makes me feel your argument is petty, simplistic, and inaccurate.

[chef17]

Teeray if it is too early to say he isn't clutch then why isn't it too early to see he is elite?

Edit: Just a question, no I don't personally think he is a choke artist.

[Montsta]

Game 1 @ AZ

AZ is up 28-21 with 2:20 left. The Panthers offense started on the Carolina 17 yard line, and drove the length of the field to the AZ 6 yard line. We didn't get the TD, but it was a methodical drive that went 77 yards and used only 1:06 of game time. Again, maybe we didn't score the TD, but to do this in your 1st NFL start, on the road, in a place that was ROCKING (I was there personally), is beyond impressive.

Game 2 Vs. Green Bay

Green Bay is up 23-16 with 7:20 left. The Panthers offense started on the Carolina 32 yard line, and drove the length of the field to the GB 6 yard line. Cam drives the Panthers down the field 65 yards in 9 plays using 4:11 off the clock, against one of the most complicated defenses in the NFL. Again, the team comes up short of the endzone, but Cam drove the offense down the field in spite of being let down by his veteran offensive line and getting sacked 3 times for minus 15 yards on the drive. Unfortunately, it's a turnover on downs, and Rodgers hooks up with Jordy Nelson on the first play of their next drive, leading to a two touchdown difference. Do Cam & the offense lay it down like in years past? Nope. They start at the Carolina 17 and drive 83 yards for a score in 1:37 to give the team at least a chance to get the onside back and tie the game. We unfortunately didn't get the onside kick, and would go on to lose 30-23.

Game 5 Vs. New Orleans

After a Sherrod Martin interception of Brees at the Carolina 41 with just over 2:00 remaining in the 3rd quarter, Cam engineers a clock-killing, go-ahead drive that puts us up 27-23 and eats up nearly 5 minutes and 60 yards in 11 plays. Once again, the defense wouldn't hold up their end, and they would go on to let Brees score with 50 seconds left. In years past, this was a wrap. But the offense took the field with a chance to win, and the drive unfortunately was stalled due to a Naanee drop and a Gross holding penalty. Those two plays helped kill the drive, a drive where only those 20 more yards could have put us in field goal range to tie it.

and finally...

Game 8 vs. Minnesota

Minnesota is up 24-21 with 2:43 left. The Panthers offense started on the Carolina 24 yard line, and drove the length of the field to the MIN 13 yard line. Cam drives the Panthers down the field 57 yards in 12 plays using 2:17off the clock. It would have been the 8 yard line with 1st & GOAL if not for a holding penalty against Steve Smith. This would have given us a fine opportunity to win the game, or at least tie it with a field goal, but Mare missed a 31 yard chipshot.

Granted the Chicago and Atlanta games, Cam and the offense didn't play at a level at the end of the game to put us in a chance to win, but in all these other examples, he did just that. You can say he sucks in the 4th, or that he is not clutch or whatever, but it's been a long time since I have felt comfortable coming from behind in a game where we have to drive the length of the field late. You can site 4th QTR QB Rating or completion % or twist this with whatever stats you'd like to make it fit your views, but I watch every snap of every Panthers game every week, and nearly every week Cam Newton, a ROOKIE QB, has put the team on his back and given us a chance to win games, only to come up short as a team.

If this kid doesn't get you excited for the future of Panthers football, then you either don't have a pulse or you haven't been watching the same Carolina football that I have for the past 16 years. Just my opinion.

[SoSportz]

Cam is doing an amazing job. He had so many doubters and has proved everybody wrong. The Panthers will be the team to beat in future with Cam leading the way. http://sosportz.blogspot.com

-@SoSportz

[chef17]

How is it Cam puts the team on his back and leads the team to victory or gives us a chance to win but the entire team loses? Giving Cam credit for all good but blaming the team for the loss is no better than people blaming Cam for not winning

[OARevolution]

Monsta and Teeray hit the nail right on the head..... When we get the ball I feel like we can go down and score every time, and as a Panther fan I have never felt that way before. It is not Cam at all. Cam has been amazing. I have no idea how anyone watching our games could refute that. To me it seems like we just keep having bad luck at crucial times. It's either a holding call that takes a way a touchdown or big first down or something ridiculous like this week where we have a holding call that takes away what would be a first and goal from around the 2 or 3 yard line, and then we follow it up with a missed 31 yard field goal.....

I don't think I have ever seen so many big game changing plays called back in one season than Carolina has had. If a few of those plays would have gone the other way or our defense would have had just a few more stops our record would be a heck of a lot better right now.

Also if our defense would make more stops we would be putting up more points and not being put into situations where it's a one position game in the fourth quarter every week. It would just be nice to be up by two scores every now and then.

[teeray]

Teeray if it is too early to say he isn't clutch then why isn't it too early to see he is elite?

Edit: Just a question, no I don't personally think he is a choke artist.

I think there is a lot more evidence that he is elite or at least going to be.

The only way he doesn't become elite (if he isn't already) is if he never gets any better than he is right now. History would suggest that won't be the case.

But is elite right now? I think so. The problem that Pantherball has is that he assumes that since I say you can't blame Cam for our current record I also mean that Cam doesn't deserve any of the blame. I just feel that trying to lay the blame at his feet exclusively is asinine and unwarranted.

The reason why I think Cam is already elite is that I feel that with him at QB, every game we have a chance to win. He has been the most significant addition to a 2-14 team and a historically bad offense and now we have a chance against any team we play on any given Sunday. Before he was our QB I don't think I could have said that.

Olsen was a really good pick up for us but with Cam (and some new coaching) we have gone from an abysmal offense to an offense that has kept us in games despite some turnovers and bad defense.

So yeah I think he is elite. But I can understand why people are hesitant to say that because we are 2-6. What I don't understand is how anyone can try to shoulder him exclusively with the blame of being 2-6.

[VIP]

How is it Cam puts the team on his back and leads the team to victory or gives us a chance to win but the entire team loses? Giving Cam credit for all good but blaming the team for the loss is no better than people blaming Cam for not winning

thats just kinda how it goes when you have a top 5-10 QB and a terrible defense, and honestly probably the worst special teams I've ever seen at the pro level. The guys that aren't pulling their weight deserve the blame. especially the special teams. Pilares and Edwards are god awful, they get god awful blocking, teams get great returns vs us consistently in punts and kickoffs, and Mare is a choker. Even Baker hasnt been good this season (dont have the stats on that, just on eye test). This entire special teams unit is an embarassment to the sport

[Pantherball]

So passing wise he's 13th in QB rating, 2nd in yards, 5th in YPG, 18th in Comp %, 4th in YPA, 1st in over 20, 5th in over 40, 7th in first downs passing. As for his interceptions, he's accompanied by the likes of Brees (who leads the league), Brady, Rivers and Dalton. They all have 7-10 Interceptions. Brady, Rivers and Brees have similar YPA stats, all three over 8.0 YPA as is Cam. PBall added in sacks, so I'll go there as well. Rodgers has 16 sacks (compared to cam's 17) on close to 50 less pass attempts. Big Ben leads the league in sacks on 3 less attempts. Bree's has 19 on 43 less pass attempts. Brady has three less sacks on 15 fewer attempts.

"Dalton averages a measly 6.8 YPA, which ranks 20th in the league. 17th in over 20, 14th in over 40 and his QB rating is 18th. Which ranks behind McNabb who was just benched for Ponder. Hmm..... "

Considering that Newton is in a vertical passing offense that has him throwing more deep balls then any other QB in the league, his numbers as a rookie are fantastic, heck his numbers overall are fantastic. Is he a top 5 QB looking just at passing numbers, that's debatable for sure. I'm willing to say that he's a top 10 QB now as a rookie and has the skills that could allow him to be the best QB in the NFL in 3-5 years.

If you add in his rushing numbers and statistics, not just with QB's but overall in the NFL.

3rd in Rushing td's, 10th in first downs, 39th in YPG, 31st in yards at 5.1 ypc on 63 attempts.

However lets break it down even more.

4th quarter QB rating stats....

Cam's overall rating is 87, his 4th quarter is 84.4.

Bree's overall rating is 100.6, his 4th quarter is 93.9

Rodger's overall rating is 125, his 4th quarter is 94.7

Brady's overall rating is 104, his 4th quarter is 96.6

As you see every QB's rating and performance drops in the 4th quarter to a similar degree as Cam's. It's up to the rest of the team to pick them up and help them out to an extent and give them as many chances as possible.

First of all I just want to say this is one of the most intelligent replies on this forum to my argument. And top 10 perhaps, if wasn't for his 4th quarter statistics, he would be there. Considering those, he's top 15-20 right now. Once again I agree with his yardage numbers. But if you're going to compare him to Dalton and point out some of those advanced passing statistics you have to be able to do it in tandem with the receivers and not lose sight of a very important fact:

Andy Dalton's #1 receiver is AJ Green, another rookie coming out of college. Cam Newton's #1 receiver is Steve Smith, currently the #1 receiver in the NFL, and an elite veteran who's been doing this for a long time.

Breakdown: rec-tar-yards-ypa-TD's-long-20+

A.J. Green's stats: 33 59 516 15.6 5 58 9

Steve Smith's stats: 46 73 918 20.0 4 77 19

AJ Green has caught 56% of his passes.

Steve Smith has caught 61% of his passes.

Now before you put that on Cam Newton realize Andy Dalton's got a better completion percentage than Cam Newton(62.4 vs 60.6). So that means Cam's targeting Steve more than Dalton and also missing Steve more often than Andy's missing AJ and yet Steve Smith catches at a higher efficiency.

What does this mean? Cam's got by far the better #1 receiver. Smith also had double the yards but less touchdowns even though he has far more receptions than Green. Smith is the real deal just like we already knew. He can make Jake Delhomme look good and he can make a rookie who likes to pass more than his accuracy dictates look damn good in the yards category.

And before I go into the rest, and the bolded part I can accept that his 4th quarter rating is 84.4 overall this year and that other QB's ratings drop as well. Can you acknowledge the validity and importance of his 4th quarter QB rating of 60.0 in comeback drives or game winning drives? Can you acknowledge that Cam Newton is 1 for 14 on offensive drives in the 4th quarter in tied or 1 score game situations?

[Montsta]

How is it Cam puts the team on his back and leads the team to victory or gives us a chance to win but the entire team loses? Giving Cam credit for all good but blaming the team for the loss is no better than people blaming Cam for not winning

I mentioned that in the ATL and CHI losses, I didn't think Cam did well at the end. But in the examples I cited, cam did everything he should be asked and then some, and it was things out of his control that for the most part cost us the game. Be it penalties, dropped passes, shitty ST or defense, whatever. Ultimately football is the biggest true team sport in the states, and they are all team wins or losses, but Cam really has put us into position to win most of the games we've played in my opinion.

[chef17]

I think there is a lot more evidence that he is elite or at least going to be.

The only way he doesn't become elite (if he isn't already) is if he never gets any better than he is right now. History would suggest that won't be the case.

But is elite right now? I think so. The problem that Pantherball has is that he assumes that since I say you can't blame Cam for our current record I also mean that Cam doesn't deserve any of the blame. I just feel that trying to lay the blame at his feet exclusively is asinine and unwarranted.

The reason why I think Cam is already elite is that I feel that with him at QB, every game we have a chance to win. He has been the most significant addition to a 2-14 team and a historically bad offense and now we have a chance against any team we play on any given Sunday. Before he was our QB I don't think I could have said that.

Olsen was a really good pick up for us but with Cam (and some new coaching) we have gone from an abysmal offense to an offense that has kept us in games despite some turnovers and bad defense.

So yeah I think he is elite. But I can understand why people are hesitant to say that because we are 2-6. What I don't understand is how anyone can try to shoulder him exclusively with the blame of being 2-6.

You make good points and that is why I asked your opinion. For me personally, I think it takes consistently performing at a high level to be considered elite. IMO Newton hasn't had enough time to be elite.

I certainly agree that barring some extreme unforeseen circumstance, he will be elite, possibly next season if he continues his trend. But I think he just needs more games before we can conclude that. Look at Freeman. Last year everyone was saying he was a top QB and hoped Cam could be at least as good as he was. Now, not so much.

thats just kinda how it goes when you have a top 5-10 QB and a terrible defense, and honestly probably the worst special teams I've ever seen at the pro level. The guys that aren't pulling their weight deserve the blame. especially the special teams. Pilares and Edwards are god awful, they get god awful blocking, teams get great returns vs us consistently in punts and kickoffs, and Mare is a choker. Even Baker hasnt been good this season (dont have the stats on that, just on eye test). This entire special teams unit is an embarassment to the sport

I understand that but that completely discredits the rest of the offense. Yeah Cam has been great, but Smith, Shockey, Olsen, Williams, Stew, Lafell, even Legs have all made great plays to help him out.

Peyton Manning still lead his team to the playoffs with practice squad WRs after their WR group got injured. That is putting the team on your back. IMO when a QB is getting help from a good/great WR/TE group, he isn't putting the team on his back.

[teeray]

First of all I just want to say this is one of the most intelligent replies on this forum to my argument. And top 10 perhaps, if wasn't for his 4th quarter statistics, he would be there. Considering those, he's top 15-20 right now. Once again I agree with his yardage numbers. But if you're going to compare him to Dalton and point out some of those advanced passing statistics you have to be able to do it in tandem with the receivers and not lose sight of a very important fact:

Andy Dalton's #1 receiver is AJ Green, another rookie coming out of college. Cam Newton's #1 receiver is Steve Smith, currently the #1 receiver in the NFL, and an elite veteran who's been doing this for a long time.

Breakdown: rec-tar-yards-ypa-TD's-long-20+

A.J. Green's stats: 33 59 516 15.6 5 58 9

Steve Smith's stats: 46 73 918 20.0 4 77 19

AJ Green has caught 56% of his passes.

Steve Smith has caught 61% of his passes.

Now before you put that on Cam Newton realize Andy Dalton's got a better completion percentage than Cam Newton(62.4 vs 60.6). So that means Cam's targeting Steve more than Dalton and also missing Steve more often than Andy's missing AJ and yet Steve Smith catches at a higher efficiency.

What does this mean? Cam's got by far the better #1 receiver. Smith also had double the yards but less touchdowns even though he has far more receptions than Green. Smith is the real deal just like we already knew. He can make Jake Delhomme look good and he can make a rookie who likes to pass more than his accuracy dictates look damn good in the yards category.

And before I go into the rest, and the bolded part I can accept that his 4th quarter rating is 84.4 overall this year and that other QB's ratings drop as well. Can you acknowledge the validity and importance of his 4th quarter QB rating of 60.0 in comeback drives or game winning drives? Can you acknowledge that Cam Newton is 1 for 14 on offensive drives in the 4th quarter in tied or 1 score game situations?

Why is all of this so important yet quality of competition disregarded?? I mean if you are going to try and break this down so intensively doesn't the team you are playing hold some sort of value.

If the Panthers played Cleveland, Indy, Seattle, and Denver Cam would likely have a better record and his statistics would likely get a bump wouldn't they??

[Montsta]

Can you acknowledge the validity and importance of his 4th quarter QB rating of 60.0 in comeback drives or game winning drives? Can you acknowledge that Cam Newton is 1 for 14 on offensive drives in the 4th quarter in tied or 1 score game situations?

Since we are having intelligent discussion, may I ask for a link where you got your 4th QTR comeback-scenario only rating for Cam? I only ask because it seems like every game we are down, Cam engineers a solid drive down the field and puts us in a fantastic position to either tie or take the lead.

[chef17]

I mentioned that in the ATL and CHI losses, I didn't think Cam did well at the end. But in the examples I cited, cam did everything he should be asked and then some, and it was things out of his control that for the most part cost us the game. Be it penalties, dropped passes, pooty ST or defense, whatever. Ultimately football is the biggest true team sport in the states, and they are all team wins or losses, but Cam really has put us into position to win most of the games we've played in my opinion.

I understand that completely, I think Cam has been asked to do way to much but he still goes out and performs at a high level. I just think too many people have an attitude like this

a ROOKIE QB, has put the team on his back and given us a chance to win games, only to come up short as a team.

Now I understand where you were going with it, but I think some people really do give the QB all the credit if he leads them to a win but none of the blame when the team comes up short.