Merril hodge says cam newton a top 5 qb right now.

[panthers55]

The numbers are the facts and are irrefutable. The issue is how to interpret the facts and that is where there is quite a bit of lattitude to discuss. Is Cam a top 5 quarterback? Total yards he is second, completion percentage he is 18th, yards per attempt he is 4th, passer rating he is 13th, number of 20 yard passes he is number 1 by a long shot. 40 yard passes he is tied with 5 other guys for 5th.

So the questions are do you compare all quarterbacks on the same measures regardless of system? Do you count completion percentage as most important which advantages WCO guys who usually have a higher completion percentage due to system. Or do you give the nod to the guy with the highest yards per attempt which is a measure of efficiency and rewards vertical downfield throwers. Maybe you look at passer rating which rewards the guy who might not be great at one category but is good at several of them. Maybe is the guys with the most 4th down comebacks. Maybe the one who threw the most touchdowns.

What is the right answer? Depends on what you value. Bottom line is that a case could be made that he is a top 5 Qb and you can make a case he isn't.

Why am I optimistic? His trends outside of the Atlanta game are positive. In the last 2 games he has completed almost 70% of his passes, had 4 passing TDs and 0 Ints and has a passer rating of over 120 and an average yards per attempt of over 9 yards. The question is will he continue to improve as he gets further experience, fall back somewhat as teams get more film on him, or something in between. If you include his rushing TDs and passing TDs he has accounted for 18 TDS versus 9 Ints which is consistent with top QBs. Given he can do things other guys can't you could surely make a case he is top 5.

[rayzor]

Yeah, this is sort of a massive waste of time. I'm going to go try to go meet some girl that looks like slutty pocahontas.

thanks for the idea.

*writes down 'slutty pocohontas' costume on the list of things to buy for wife at costume store clearance sale tomorrow*

[rayzor]

has anyone done an IP check on pantherball? something very familiar about what he's doing.

[teeray]

If Steve Smith makes all these number somewhat artificial why didn't he help Jake the last couple of years, Matt Moore, or Clausen?

And since you are giving and taking away points at your leisure are you accounting for dropped passes, false starts in the red zone, bad holding calls in the red zone, missed field goals, missed extra points, receivers running the wrong routes in the red zone, and bad pass interference calls??

Do you account for games in which he led us to a fourth quarter lead that was squandered?? Are you taking into account strength of schedule??

Do you ever ask yourself whether QB rating is the best way to judge a QB?? I mean in 2008 Chad Pennington had a higher QB rating than Ben Roethlisberger, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, and Eli Manning. Does that mean he is better than those guys??

I mean you are barely hanging on by a thread Pantherball and it is sad to see guys like you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to come up with new ways to discredit Cam Newton.

[carpanfan96]

So passing wise he's 13th in QB rating, 2nd in yards, 5th in YPG, 18th in Comp %, 4th in YPA, 1st in over 20, 5th in over 40, 7th in first downs passing. As for his interceptions, he's accompanied by the likes of Brees (who leads the league), Brady, Rivers and Dalton. They all have 7-10 Interceptions. Brady, Rivers and Brees have similar YPA stats, all three over 8.0 YPA as is Cam. PBall added in sacks, so I'll go there as well. Rodgers has 16 sacks (compared to cam's 17) on close to 50 less pass attempts. Big Ben leads the league in sacks on 3 less attempts. Bree's has 19 on 43 less pass attempts. Brady has three less sacks on 15 fewer attempts.

"Dalton averages a measly 6.8 YPA, which ranks 20th in the league. 17th in over 20, 14th in over 40 and his QB rating is 18th. Which ranks behind McNabb who was just benched for Ponder. Hmm..... "

Considering that Newton is in a vertical passing offense that has him throwing more deep balls then any other QB in the league, his numbers as a rookie are fantastic, heck his numbers overall are fantastic. Is he a top 5 QB looking just at passing numbers, that's debatable for sure. I'm willing to say that he's a top 10 QB now as a rookie and has the skills that could allow him to be the best QB in the NFL in 3-5 years.

If you add in his rushing numbers and statistics, not just with QB's but overall in the NFL.

3rd in Rushing td's, 10th in first downs, 39th in YPG, 31st in yards at 5.1 ypc on 63 attempts.

However lets break it down even more.

4th quarter QB rating stats....

Cam's overall rating is 87, his 4th quarter is 84.4.

Bree's overall rating is 100.6, his 4th quarter is 93.9

Rodger's overall rating is 125, his 4th quarter is 94.7

Brady's overall rating is 104, his 4th quarter is 96.6

As you see every QB's rating and performance drops in the 4th quarter to a similar degree as Cam's. It's up to the rest of the team to pick them up and help them out to an extent and give them as many chances as possible.

[nickzz]

don't feed the troll... you guys must be new to the internet.

Pantherball: sports aren't all about statistics. something you would know if you've ever played. cam newton is nice at football, end of story.

[Pantherball]

Pantherball you really are stretching reality with this pithy argument. And frankly it is all you and guys like TRD have left.

If you think what you are saying is reality and that he crumbles with the game on the line, you are literally too stupid to debate.

If the over analyzing a rookie QB and cherry picking statistics is the best you can do then you have already lost.

Cam deserves everything that has come his way in terms of praise and I would take him 10/10 times right now over any QB in the NFL because Cam is elite and is still trying to figure things out. Imagine, it takes most QBs actually about three years of game experience before they truly feel comfortable. Cam is only half a season in :eek:. Wait until his head stops spinning.

As for Dalton. I only wish we could have played the Broncos, Buffalo, Cleveland, Seattle, San Francisco, Jacksonville, and Indy. We would be 5-2 also. That is why trying to compare W-L is for simple minded people who can't figure things out for themselves so they need something easy that they can comprehend.

I don't keep up with TRD enough to know why that matters. I don't keep up with his argument style so I'm not really sure what TRD is saying but if he's doing what I am and running into guys like you I don't blame him for giving up because it's a lot man. You are and have been so stuck up this QB's ass from the day he played his first game to ever possibly look at our QB objectively again this season. Which is why you have an issue with anyone that points anything out against Cam Newton. You and a few others are not just Panthers fans. You are Cam Newton fanatics.

Which makes you far too delusional and rabid for me to ever have an intelligent conversation with, based on logic or facts because you always rely on insults when others use valid points to show you otherwise.

Some of you do this every year. Every fuging year when there's talk of a new QB. You lose it. And you lose sight of the team. You lose sight of what's important. You lose sight of winning. You lose your minds. And you tend to trash our other players and other members unfairly to make excuses for the rookie.

Nobody's over analyzing anything. Some of you are just having a hard time swallowing a simple truth so we keep arguing about it because you refuse to accept it: the guy is 1/14 in close 4th quarter games when down or tied, he's 0-6 when he turns over the ball, and he's QB rating drops in the 4th quarter to sub-par levels. There is nothing complicated about that. He has not proven the most important thing in the NFL and to us as Panther fans. The ability to overcome pressure and win the close game. And because winning is the most important thing to me as a Carolina Panthers fan, he doesn't deserve this amount of praise and blind loyalty just like Clausen didn't either last year. NOT until he proves he can do that.

Yes he's a rookie, but the problem with us winning the games has not been the defense, it's been just that: he crawls back to rookie status in the 4th because of pressure. 1/14 tries. Mental toughness brother. Raising to the occasion when the game is on the line and time is running out. That's what you want in a leader. He's not there yet. So stop blaming everyone else and realize that's the primary issue.

What you also don't realize is that all of those other things that he does has no bearing on that part and that ability. His yards, his rushing ability, his size....all of that means nothing when it comes to the ability to stand in the face of pressure and win the close game. It doesn't actually say he's going to have it some day! Other guys get there quicker. Others never make it. Time doesn't necessarily help with this either. In fact going too long without getting there makes it worse because the pressure just builds and builds. The only thing that makes you good at doing that is simply: doing it. Doing it repeatedly. I'm not passing any judgment yet on Cam Newton's ability to do this 2 years down the road. I am saying every single game we played this year was there for the taking in the 4th quarter, but he doesn't have what it takes yet to put it away. He has not figured out how to put the game away at the NFL level yet.

As far as Dalton, this is just another excuse on your part. It doesn't freaking matter who they played or how much better their defense is because he was also in the same situation like Cam where he had tied or down games in the 4th quarter. He won all 3 of them. And Cam's won 1 of 6. Andy Dalton only needed 1 chance in each of of those 3 close games to put the game away and he did! Our defense gave Cam more chances because they still managed to keep the game winnable after he failed on his first tries. But you are too freaking biased to understand this! It's like you're freaking drugged up.

Your logic breaks down when you realize the toughest defense Cam's faced this year, he ended up beating: Washington. Why? Because we were not tied or down in the 4th quarter with Washington. We went up and stayed up. Why? Because he didn't turn over the ball earlier in the game. 0-6 now when he turns over the ball and we play from behind.

[Montsta]

has anyone done an IP check on pantherball? something very familiar about what he's doing.

Beat me to it rayzor. If Pantherball isn't TRD, he is someone that has studied and perfected the TRD "how to piss off an internet forum" playbook. It has to be him, because there is no chance that there is two guys on the planet, let alone the same forum, that act that way.

[Marguide]

Beat me to it rayzor. If Pantherball isn't TRD, he is someone that has studied and perfected the TRD "how to piss off an internet forum" playbook. It has to be him, because there is no chance that there is two guys on the planet, let alone the same forum, that act that way.

Pantherball isn't TRD/Camdemonium. TRD does what he does just to be a d!ck. He doesn't write walls of text arguing inane viewpoints, he just chips away at the edges.

Pantherball, aka PantherFan4Life, tries his hardest to pick out "facts" that support his particular world view, in this case, his belief that Cam is a narcissistic choke artist.

Very different animals, but equally obnoxious in their own way.

[Porn Shop Clerk]

I don't keep up with TRD enough to know why that matters. I don't keep up with his argument style so I'm not really sure what TRD is saying but if he's doing what I am and running into guys like you I don't blame him for giving up because it's a lot man. You are and have been so stuck up this QB's ass from the day he played his first game to ever possibly look at our QB objectively again this season. Which is why you have an issue with anyone that points anything out against Cam Newton. You and a few others are not just Panthers fans. You are Cam Newton fanatics.

Which makes you far too delusional and rabid for me to ever have an intelligent conversation with, based on logic or facts because you always rely on insults when others use valid points to show you otherwise.

Some of you do this every year. Every fuging year when there's talk of a new QB. You lose it. And you lose sight of the team. You lose sight of what's important. You lose sight of winning. You lose your minds. And you tend to trash our other players and other members unfairly to make excuses for the rookie.

Nobody's over analyzing anything. Some of you are just having a hard time swallowing a simple truth so we keep arguing about it because you refuse to accept it: the guy is 1/14 in close 4th quarter games when down or tied, he's 0-6 when he turns over the ball, and he's QB rating drops in the 4th quarter to sub-par levels. There is nothing complicated about that. He has not proven the most important thing in the NFL and to us as Panther fans. The ability to overcome pressure and win the close game. And because winning is the most important thing to me as a Carolina Panthers fan, he doesn't deserve this amount of praise and blind loyalty just like Clausen didn't either last year. NOT until he proves he can do that.

Yes he's a rookie, but the problem with us winning the games has not been the defense, it's been just that: he crawls back to rookie status in the 4th because of pressure. 1/14 tries. Mental toughness brother. Raising to the occasion when the game is on the line and time is running out. That's what you want in a leader. He's not there yet. So stop blaming everyone else and realize that's the primary issue.

What you also don't realize is that all of those other things that he does has no bearing on that part and that ability. His yards, his rushing ability, his size....all of that means nothing when it comes to the ability to stand in the face of pressure and win the close game. It doesn't actually say he's going to have it some day! Other guys get there quicker. Others never make it. Time doesn't necessarily help with this either. In fact going too long without getting there makes it worse because the pressure just builds and builds. The only thing that makes you good at doing that is simply: doing it. Doing it repeatedly. I'm not passing any judgment yet on Cam Newton's ability to do this 2 years down the road. I am saying every single game we played this year was there for the taking in the 4th quarter, but he doesn't have what it takes yet to put it away. He has not figured out how to put the game away at the NFL level yet.

As far as Dalton, this is just another excuse on your part. It doesn't freaking matter who they played or how much better their defense is because he was also in the same situation like Cam where he had tied or down games in the 4th quarter. He won all 3 of them. And Cam's won 1 of 6. Andy Dalton only needed 1 chance in each of of those 3 close games to put the game away and he did! Our defense gave Cam more chances because they still managed to keep the game winnable after he failed on his first tries. But you are too freaking biased to understand this! It's like you're freaking drugged up.

Your logic breaks down when you realize the toughest defense Cam's faced this year, he ended up beating: Washington. Why? Because we were not tied or down in the 4th quarter with Washington. We went up and stayed up. Why? Because he didn't turn over the ball earlier in the game. 0-6 now when he turns over the ball and we play from behind.

[BBQ&Beer]

Point to other QBs all you want PB, you'll never find one that had a game winning drive in any of their teams losses.

[panthers55]

So let's recap his passer ratings:

QB rating: 13th

Yards: 2nd(He's still 5th in yards per game so this is an artificial increase until next week. He's been dropping and he's going to drop back down after our bye week)

Completion percentage: 18th

TD's: 13th

Sacks 24th (Let's talk about this for a second: He's NOT escaping. What's happening is he's holding on to the ball too long because he's also looking to run which also puts this offense last in holding penalties)

Interceptions: 29th

.

I have taken out all the lame opinions and ridiculous commentary and this is the crux of your argument. So lets first make things accurate and then we can discuss your conclusions.

As for quarterback rating and completion percentage you are correct he is not top 5. You have to decide how important these are in the context that vertical passing QBs are almost always at a disadvantage to QBs in a WCO offense where many of their passes are dump offs and extended handoffs. He has the most 20 yard completions in the league by far and is tied with 5 others for 40 plus completions. If you look at yards per attempt he is 4th. Seems to me that quarterback rating puts too much emphasis on completion percentage and in newton's case fail to give him any credit for rushing TDs which do count. Sure you can say that is not passing but it ignores the fact that he could have just as easily thrown the ball as run for it but because he can run he did. Guys like Brees and Brady throw it because they can't run for it. You surely don't penalize Newton for being able to do something others can't.

If you look at TDs the total is 18 not 13 or 11. And that ranks him tied for 5th with Tom Brady.

Now lets look at Ints. Instead of just looking at 9 and saying he is 29th lets put it in context. Drew Brees has accounted for 19 TDs and 10 Ints. Is he a top 5 QB? How about Brady? He has accounted for 18 TDs and 8 Ints. So lets be real here. Newton has almost the same number of TDs and Ints as arguably 2 of the top QBs. So lets not act as if he is near the bottom of the barrel.

And sacks are a function of the line as well as the QB. He has 17 sacks right now. Brees has 19, Rodgers has 16 and Brady who has played 1 less game has 14. So again by comparison he is right in the company of guys who are by all accounts top 5 guys. Does he has escapability? Anyone who says he doesn't is an idiot. The question is with our right side of the line how many sacks would he have if he couldn't escape. Does he hold the ball too long? Lets ask Roethlisburger who has 14 TDs, 7 Ints and 25 sacks. But then again Ben is at the bottom of the barrel too, right??

What you could benefit from is some perspective. You are working so hard to try and find some numbers and reasons to not like Newton you are missing the forest to concentrate on a few trees. Numbers can say what you want in isolation but with context can help bring clarity to a situation. Is Newton now top 5?? Seems he surely could be if you base it on other guys who are considered to be.

[Carl Spackler]

hahaha this has been turned into one of the worst threads ever. Pantherball please retire to your laundry room, there should be a bleach cocktail in there waiting to be made and ingested

[rayzor]

Pantherball isn't TRD/Camdemonium. TRD does what he does just to be a d!ck. He doesn't write walls of text arguing inane viewpoints, he just chips away at the edges.

Pantherball, aka PantherFan4Life, tries his hardest to pick out "facts" that support his particular world view, in this case, his belief that Cam is a narcissistic choke artist.

Very different animals, but equally obnoxious in their own way.

yeah, i was more thinking pffl.