Newton the Passer vs Newton the Runner

[footballisasport]

He's already everything Vick has strived to become.

He's everything The Golden Calf of Bristol isn't but no one seems to want to accept that reality.

Don't understand why Tim is even being compared to Cam? Why not compare him to Blaine or Christian or even Andrew Luck? I guess because they know he isn't really that good but in some people's mind, he's better than or equal to Cam despite the obvious...hmmmm

[Pantherball]

He's everything The Golden Calf of Bristol isn't but no one seems to want to accept that reality.

Don't understand why Tim is even being compared to Cam? Why not compare him to Blaine or Christian or even Andrew Luck? I guess because they know he isn't really that good but in some people's mind, he's better than or equal to Cam despite the obvious...hmmmm

Because they have both been scrutinized and said they couldn't get it done, The Golden Calf of Bristol to a greater extent? Because they both make great plays with their feet?

[DawgzLife]

The latter is almost a rite of passage for black QBs that come into this league. There's not one that was highly rated that hasnt had that happen to them. This is called "racial bias", and this is the part of the game that needs to get cleaned up.

Since this discussion is turning into 'racial', which has legitamacy, look at White RBs. Peyton Hillis was labeled as a FB his whole time in the NFL, but had a great year last year as a RB. Why didn't he get the opportunity as a RB before? Why are there very few White CBs?

The league (meaning GMs, Coaches & Owners) is racist, but it goes multiple ways. How long did it take for Samoians to get a foothold in the NFL, but are now kicking butt in many positions?

This world would be much better without stereo-typing, but the only thing that will break the cycle will be those of us who will recognize it & rise above it.

This was not meant to be preachy, but why are race discussions aways black & white? Are there not many ethnicities out there? We are all 1 race, human.

[smitty_89]

this has to be the most intelligent huddle discussion in a while.

[DawgzLife]

Oh well King it is what it is and I argue that it may even get worse in the coming years.

I hope you are wrong, b/c there are guys like Luck, Locker, etc., who are not black but should be talked about in the same discussion as 'running QBs'. Another point is that with Cam in the league & other QBs who can show multiple dimensions AND WIN, teams will flock towards them, not away form them (pigeon-hole).

Winning is really what it's all about. Mike Vick hurts 'running QBs' b/c he can't win with his arm 'only'. Same can be said for Cordell Stewart or 'some' other black 'running QBs'. (yes, there have been running black QBs who win consistently, but not many honestly; McNabb is an example).

Once there are guys like Cam who can run & throw & win with only their arms...this will start to fade away. Winning has to come first, then the change will happen. Cam is gettting praise all over, but still, to change perceptions there has to be winning (which will happen with Cam...a lot!).

[Pantherball]

I am guessing you never saw Warren Moon play football.

You know, the one in the Hall of Fame.

Warren Moon QB career rating:

208 208 6,823–3,988 49,325 0.584 291 233 458–3,415 80.9

Manning:

208 208 141 4,682 7,210 64.9 54,828 7.6 399 198 346 722 2.1 17 94.9

Tom Brady:

145 143 4,710 2,996 63.6 34,744 7.4 261 103 95.2

And they're not even the most accurate so what are you smoking?

And even if you want to give Warren Moon the label of an elite accurate passer, which honestly he does not deserve...how many years ago was that? More than half a decade ago?

Like I said just because Emminem has proven he can be as natural at rapping as black guys, that doesn't mean he's proven white guys are now on equal levels as rappers. It doesn't mean if I decide to stop playing guitar and tomorrow I start hitting hip-hop clubs, I'm going to be embraced with open arms as a sure thing just because Emminem did it. I'd still get scrutinized and criticized in and out. When there's a new white rapping star coming out every year, and competing for the #1 hit with other black rappers...then you can say we're there!

Think about what you're saying for a second. It's not racism, it's common sense and status quo. Again until you have 4-5 black QBs as consistent and accurate year in and year out, this will not change.

But nobody's kept black QB's with 80% completion ratios coming out of college from entering the draft since the Warren Moon days. If the talent's there the NFL has proven it can found it AND given it a chance to play regardless of the color of your skin.

It's a retarded debate. Racism or racist folks don't stop black QB's from being exceedingly accurate passers.

[edromeo]

GP-

Since this discussion is turning into 'racial', which has legitamacy, look at White RBs. Peyton Hillis was labeled as a FB his whole time in the NFL, but had a great year last year as a RB. Why didn't he get the opportunity as a RB before?

Hillis was a FB not because he's white but because he has the body of a FB.

Why are there very few White CBs?

Good question.

I think part of the answer is baseball/basketball.

Some of the best athletes in my school white or black were on the baseball/basketball team and never even thought about playing football.

I also think that QB and WR have more cache then RB or CB.

For example Jason Seahorn didn't start playing football til his Junior year of highschool.

Something tells me that if he would have started playing earlier he would have been a QB or WR.

[Pantherball]

Why are there very few White CBs?

Obviously because the NFL's racist towards white guys....;)

[edromeo]

Warren Moon QB career rating:

And even if you want to give Warren Moon the label of an elite accurate passer, which honestly he does not deserve...how many years ago was that? More than half a decade ago?

Exactly, if Warren Moon played now I would imagine his stats would be on par or better then Manning or Brady he certainly threw the ball better then those guys.

Racism or racist folks don't stop black QB's from being exceedingly accurate passers.

Then what stops people from making accurate assessments of talent?

People claimed that Cam wasn't accurate.

Explain that.

You also state that you think Warren Moon wasn't an accurate passer.

But if you've watched Moon at all you would know that he was very accurate.

Unless of course you're wrongly using accuracy to mean comp %.

But, comp % is more of a unit passing game stat (QB+OL+WRs+System) then an individual measure that you think it is.

[edromeo]

One of my friends was a college QB (D1).

Went on to be college QB coach grad assistant (D1).

You know where he coaches in the NFL?

DBs.

You know why?

He said how many black OC coaches are there?

Then he said forget that how many black QB coaches are there?

[Marguide]

Warren Moon QB career rating:

208 208 6,823–3,988 49,325 0.584 291 233 458–3,415 80.9

Manning:

208 208 141 4,682 7,210 64.9 54,828 7.6 399 198 346 722 2.1 17 94.9

Tom Brady:

145 143 4,710 2,996 63.6 34,744 7.4 261 103 95.2

And they're not even the most accurate so what are you smoking?

And even if you want to give Warren Moon the label of an elite accurate passer, which honestly he does not deserve...how many years ago was that? More than half a decade ago?

Did you happen to notice how many yards Warren Moon had in his career?

You also apparently think this was in the days people still wore leather helmets. Warren Moon is not ancient history. He definitely is part of the modern era. And you do realize that rule changes have caused QB stats to improve over the last 10 to 15 years, right?

[Pantherball]

Exactly, if Warren Moon played now I would imagine his stats would be on par or better then Manning or Brady he certainly threw the ball better then those guys.

Then what stops people from making accurate assessments of talent?

People claimed that Cam wasn't accurate.

Explain that.

You also state that you think Warren Moon wasn't an accurate passer.

But if you've watched Moon at all you would know that he was very accurate.

Unless of course you're wrongly using accuracy to mean comp %.

But, comp % is more of a unit passing game stat (QB+OL+WRs+System) then an individual measure that you think it is.

A very accurate passer and an elite, and consistent, accurate passer are two different things. You're making assumptions on weather or not Moon would ever be any more accurate playing today.

Again even IF you give him that label, and I don't, it's been 60 years...and NO ONE has prevented black QB's from entering the NFL and displaying their elite accurate passing skills.

I love how people get so careful, and start saying things that are just plain cookie cutter and generally false out of fear of being called racist so they try to be politically correct.

So just because I enjoy being politically incorrect, here's some other stereotypes that I think are generally true and it doesn't make me a racist for saying them:

Asians are not prime candidates for the NBA.

White guys still can't rap in general.

Black athletes own the NBA.

White QB's still own the NFL.

All of those are stereotypes. All of those are generally true. That's got some things to do with race, but little to do with racism.

PS: Cam has not proven to be an elite QB yet or insanely accurate on a consistent basis despite the zealots who already try to crown him HOF. He's been anything but consistent so far this year so let's wait until he does it before making any more such statements.

[monstercat]

I read the 72 dolphins never actually popped champagne, it was a rumor started on MNF or something

edit: also no I don't think people are stereotyping Cam - when he came out, he'd just ran nearly as often as he passed, so yeah, people thought he was more of a running QB. Doesn't mean they were right in that assessment but I never heard anyone say Freeman was a "running quarterback" really, not nearly as much as Cam anyway (or Russell to go further back), it seems it usually gets applied to QBs who actually run a lot in college... many of whom happen to be black, but not all of them

He ran so much because Auburn called those runs. There is a big difference between a QB executing called runs, and being a "1 read and go" QB, which is what they all accused him of. It's the same now. Most of his runs as a Panther have been called runs in short yardage and goal line situations, yet people are still calling him a run first QB even though he is always scrambling to throw the ball on pass plays and only runs when he has to. Of course they're stereotyping him. Some of you are so busy defending racial bias that you just refuse to see or hear it.

[Marguide]

Pantherball, you are so wrong on so many levels that it really does not justify further discussion with you.