Come to a realization: this franchise is just too young

[Nu Guns]

Your right Mr. Scott....its like crying over taxes. Do you think the brass really cares about us?

[frash.exe]

And how exactly do you plan to get a fanbase "uniformly demanding the best" when this forum, which realistically only represents a quite small portion of the fanbase, can't even agree on a unified idea of what's best for the team?

Let's be real here. Discussion on this forum is just discussion for our sake. Nobody in actual decision making gives a rodent's rump if a bunch of fans are up in arms about a particular player, coach, or whatever. And why should they? We're fans.

I've disagreed with a load of things that this organization has done, but at no point have I ever had the illusion that my opinion mattered or ought to matter.

Ok. Let me break it down as clear as I can here.

You seem to be fixated on this idea that what I said was that i was pissed that they don't "hear me out". I actually said this in the OP

Expect something more. It's not like saying if the fans picket outside of BOA demanding Jay Cutler to be traded here, the organization will make the call. But if this fanbase can get hardcore enough and lower it's tolerance level comparative to Cowboys fans', Giants fans', Steelers fans', maybe at one point, it'll make them work that much harder in order to improve.

Its not "specific", i'm talking about the entire general mood of the fanbase.

You honestly don't think the collective heart and passion of every fan that makes up the Steelers fanbase has some bearing on the Steelers organization to force their hand a bit and go that extra mile with everything they do?

Everybody has their specific plan of different moves they would do if they were on the king's throne, but the general feeling is there.

[Mr. Scot]

Ok. Let me break it down as clear as I can here.

You seem to be fixated on this idea that what I said was that i was pissed that they don't "hear me out". I actually said this in the OP

Its not "specific", i'm talking about the entire general mood of the fanbase.

You honestly don't think the collective heart and passion of every fan that makes up the Steelers fanbase has some bearing on the Steelers organization to force their hand a bit and go that extra mile with everything they do?

Everybody has their specific plan of different moves they would do if they were on the king's throne, but the general feeling is there.

To answer your question about the Steeler fanbase, no I don't. The Raider fanbase is about as passionate as you can get. Do you see it pushing them to excellence? How about the Cowboy fanbase? Any luck there?

The only correlation between fan passion and team's winning is that winning teams generate more passionate fans. It doesn't work in the opposite direction. Never has. Never will. It's ownership that determines whether there's a commitment or not. Wise ownership is what the Cowboys and Raiders lack, but the Panthers and Steelers have it, and that's as good a foundation as you can find.

Bottom Line: Every criticism you have of the team is essentially rooted in the fact that this offseason they aren't running things the way you think they ought to run them. Being brutally honest, I think the whole notion that the team just isn't trying hard enough or is too conservative to ever field a winner is absurd, especially coming off a season when the team was one bad playoff game away from another championship game.

There's a pretty solid core in place on this team, and with a tweak or two here and there, who knows? Anyone here who thinks they can categorically say that we have no shot at anything substantial next season is talking out his blowhole. None of us knows, and there's just as much reason to hope as there is reason to fear.

Choose whichever path you want. Just don't kid yourself about whether that decision has any real import regarding the way the team is run.

[frash.exe]

To answer your question about the Steeler fanbase, no I don't. The Raider fanbase is about as passionate as you can get. Do you see it pushing them to excellence? How about the Cowboy fanbase? Any luck there?

The only correlation between fan passion and team's winning is that winning teams generate more passionate fans. It doesn't work in the opposite direction. Never has. Never will. It's ownership that determines whether there's a commitment or not. Wise ownership is what the Cowboys and Raiders lack, but the Panthers and Steelers have it, and that's as good a foundation as you can find.

The Raiders are run by an absolute basket case in Al Davis, and in addition to being owner of the Cowboys, Jerry Jones is also the General Manager of the Cowboys. ...that's not a very good mix I know, but contrary to your observation, he took the Cowboys up from the dregs of the NFC East in the late 80s and turned them into superbowl winners. ....3 times. His big mistake was dropping Jimmy Johnson in 1993 after their second consecutive SB berth. Many fans still are bitter about the decision.

Yet still, the last 4 seasons Dallas has not finished below .500. So, especially in that NFC east division, that's not too shabby.

[frash.exe]

jerry jones cumulative analysis....

20 seasons as owner. 13 of them @ .500 or better. 11 of them, playoff seasons, 3 of them, superbowl seasons.

Recently Dallas hasn't been known as an organization of elite repute, but then again, teams have their peaks and valleys. I personally can't stand Jones, he's annoying, but in his defense, he has turned that franchise around, and he had been running it extremely well in the early/mid 90s. So I don't know where this is coming from that Jones has been a horrible owner for the Cowboys.

Bottom Line: Every criticism you have of the team is essentially rooted in the fact that this offseason they aren't running things the way you think they ought to run them. Being brutally honest, I think the whole notion that the team just isn't trying hard enough or is too conservative to ever field a winner is absurd, especially coming off a season when the team was one bad playoff game away from another championship game.

In 7 years, they have yet to prove me, and the rest of the critics, that I'm wrong. Fox's jewelry box is still empty.

General situation in the NFL: 34 year old QB, off a season-ending/possibly career ending injury, hurls 5 picks and adds a fumble on top to boot, and at that point, also had his share of blunders of games to his credit earlier on. What do you think an NFL organization would do, most of the time?

It's not just my opinion, it's common sense.

[The Answer]

Me agree.

[frash.exe]

WITHOUT going into a whole thing about "the fans should have some pull in the organization", I'm going to throw some history out here.

It was the fans who started the whole "square peg/round hole" deal with Foster years before he was pushed to the side for DeAngelo Williams.

It was the fans who said that Henning's offense was inept and ineffective before Fox decided to fire him or sensed it was time to move on, and then a few months later all this news and evidence about the snap count and Delhomme's pass offense sequence in 2005 came out and Davidson's done a much better job since.

It was the fans who, for years and years, pined about Trgovac's garbage defense and soft zone coverage, and his scheme obviously hurt the defense play and for 4 straight years we've seen drops in defensive ranking.

It was the fans who speculated the conservativeness of the team and the shift into cruise control early in the game for the entire first half of the 2006 season, and then Steve Smith himself throws a comment out after the Dallas game, saying "we go up 14 points and act like it's 100".

It was the fans who cried for the running back named DeAngelo Williams to get more opportunities, and lo and behold, when he did, he blazed trails at running back for the Panthers.

It was the fans who said Dan Morgan getting the large contract extension over Will Witherspoon was a huge mistake and cited Morgan's injury history as a big reason behind it.

It was the fans who said we should cut our losses with Morgan instead of constantly relying on him to start seasons and become a durable linebacker and move on way before the organization did it themselves years later.

So I wouldn't say the fans' intuitions are that much off the mark just because we're fans. And there were also plenty of bad ideas, like starting Carr or Weinke.

I'm just saying, I, as well as a poo ton of other people, have an intuition that Delhomme's better days are behind him. And there's history to say it's definitely possible, because whether or not we should be heard, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about who's prediction was correct in the end.

[carpanfan96]

WITHOUT going into a whole thing about "the fans should have some pull in the organization", I'm going to throw some history out here.

It was the fans who started the whole "square peg/round hole" deal with Foster years before he was pushed to the side for DeAngelo Williams.

It was the fans who said that Henning's offense was inept and ineffective before Fox decided to fire him or sensed it was time to move on, and then a few months later all this news and evidence about the snap count and Delhomme's pass offense sequence in 2005 came out and Davidson's done a much better job since.

It was the fans who, for years and years, pined about Trgovac's garbage defense and soft zone coverage, and his scheme obviously hurt the defense play and for 4 straight years we've seen drops in defensive ranking.

It was the fans who speculated the conservativeness of the team and the shift into cruise control early in the game for the entire first half of the 2006 season, and then Steve Smith himself throws a comment out after the Dallas game, saying "we go up 14 points and act like it's 100".

It was the fans who cried for the running back named DeAngelo Williams to get more opportunities, and lo and behold, when he did, he blazed trails at running back for the Panthers.

It was the fans who said Dan Morgan getting the large contract extension over Will Witherspoon was a huge mistake and cited Morgan's injury history as a big reason behind it.

It was the fans who said we should cut our losses with Morgan instead of constantly relying on him to start seasons and become a durable linebacker and move on way before the organization did it themselves years later.

So I wouldn't say the fans' intuitions are that much off the mark just because we're fans. And there were also plenty of bad ideas, like starting Carr or Weinke.

I'm just saying, I, as well as a sh*t ton of other people, have an intuition that Delhomme's better days are behind him. And there's history to say it's definitely possible, because whether or not we should be heard, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about who's prediction was correct in the end.

I always thought we should've started Williams from the start, but the comments by Vinny show that he wasn't ready for the whole gig, but they could've ran a similar system to now with Foster backing him up.

Witherspoon not getting a contract pissed me off, I thought we should've cut ties with Morgan and kept Witherspoon.

We shall see if Delhomme is done this season.

As for the first two things though, if you think about it. Without those things happening we wouldn't have Beason or Stewart.....

[frash.exe]

I always thought we should've started Williams from the start, but the comments by Vinny show that he wasn't ready for the whole gig, but they could've ran a similar system to now with Foster backing him up.

Witherspoon not getting a contract pissed me off, I thought we should've cut ties with Morgan and kept Witherspoon.

We shall see if Delhomme is done this season.

As for the first two things though, if you think about it. Without those things happening we wouldn't have Beason or Stewart.....

I agree Spoon would've been moved back to the middle and he would be here and not Beason, but the balance of that is, since we wouldn't pick a linebacker in 2007, who would we have picked? Would it be another person in a different skill position who could've been a pro bowler himself here? With LB stable, we would've went elsewhere.

I also hypothesized this with DeAngelo and eventually Stewart, that if Eric Shelton had panned out in the first place, they probably wouldn't be here. But that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, since if Shelton paid dividends, the running game would've been better in 05, 06, ... and we would've selected someone else other than DeAngelo. Someone who himself could be a starter here today. Maybe it would've been Nick Mangold, our line was seriously deteriorated at that point. Maybe it would've been Kiwanuka.

**the post you quoted could be considered radical. Maybe it is, honestly, but there has always been that general theory that popular opinion is dumb anyway and this situation is no different. Whatever, I'm not going to let established principle inhibit my approach.

Just because Fox says Jake Delhomme should be QB and to not go out there and search for a talented successor does not mean it's the right one based only on the fact that he's the captain of the ship. He has not proven his intuitions to be any better than yours or mine, player-wise.

[frash.exe]

I can see where you are coming from but I am not upset with Fox getting in Williams' ear about that touchdown. It wasn't the smartest thing to do considering how much time was on the clock. Fox was right and Williams knew it. It was good that Fox told him to play smarter. I have very little doubt that we would have scored anyway....more faith in that than in our defense stopping a miracle comeback.

I kept forgetting to field this one. It was the last time we scored in the game. With 2 minutes on the clock we had already gone into handoff mode. But here's the deal. There was a better chance of the Panthers going 3 and out there on that drive, and with an 8 point lead it was a one score game to tie it for TB, the way Garcia's been a pain in the ass for us he could've just as easily marched his offense down the field again, ...he threw all over our secondary the entire night, than there was a chance of the Bucs scoring twice in a 2 minute span, onside kick recovery and all after we dropped another 7 points on them.

So despite Fox's nail-biting on the sidelines there's no concrete proven plan for scoring two touchdowns in the last two minutes of the game to upset your team. DeAngelo's late run sealed the game better than any slide he could've made after passing that first down marker.

[bigdog_10_2002]

It takes a cut throat owner to have a cut throat office. You can't have someone who keeps someone just over past accomplishments, which as much as I love the Big Cat, does too much. As long as the top of the team is fine w/ just slightly above average performances, you can't expect more.

A lot of teams would have heads rolling after letting the Cards do what they did to us, TWICE, but our office is fine w/ a nice record and playoff loss. Loyalty is nice to have, but sometimes it's a bitch.

You're dead on w/ the Fox comments, once again, past accomplishments keep him here. I love and hate the loyalty at the same time.

so your'e saying we need someone like Al Davis....hmmmmm????

[thefuzz]

You do know that this is the result of Jake re-negotiating with his team in order to sign other players right?...

I don't question Jakes motivation to help the team....I question the reason why we have to continue to mess with his contract to sign other players.

Now we are counting 10 or so million against the cap for Jake.

[Fireball77]

I can relate.

I watched the Giants/Redskins season opener with my cousin. ....BIG Giants fan. Anyway, for a good part of the game they were struggling with Washington and he got pissed and said something going along the lines of "alright, even if we won the superbowl last year lets not tolerate any bullcrap" ...something like that.

But that's the whole organization's identity. They weren't gonna get caught up in a post superbowl hangover. That's where I'd like us to be.

I agree that a team shouldn't get complacent and shouldn't be happy to tolerate playing like ass in a game because they won the SB the year before...I just think that there are games when all teams look like ass, SB winner or not, and to evaluate personnel based on a couple games isn't the way I would go about it.

I don't think the Giants made a big overhaul in personnel after the Cats absolutely debacled them (thank you Emmitt) in the 2005 playoffs. I bet their fans were pretty pissed abut that, but they turned out to be right no to do anything big.

Point being, sometimes trends fans see are valid sometimes they aren't...but the bottom line is that we as fans don't have the access to all the same data that FOs and coaching staffs do to make their decisions (such as game film) so we are working from a position of weakness knowledge wise.

[Kyle82]

so your'e saying we need someone like Al Davis....hmmmmm????

Al Davis is an insane lunatic....not a cuthroat.