Come to a realization: this franchise is just too young

[Jangler]

I agree. And I agree with Panthro....:****: I haven't worn my 2003 NFCC shirt since 2004. Some people try and say you are only as good as last year. F**K that!. I want to be good this year.

[mountainpantherfan]

Ragging Bull, I will even go one step further. I believe the Panthers convervative nature as an organization is the fault of the fans. In 1995 this state(s) was ready to love the Panthers just because they were a NFL team and bought PSLs and season tickets and lots of merchendise. Then that span between 1998-2001 occured and the Panthers were having games blacked out and trying to give away tickets. Then Fox comes in and the team has been just competetive enough for fans to stay excited and interested in the team every year since.

Maybe the Panthers and the Richardsons should take more risks but do you really blame them after what this so called "fanbase" did during the down years? Most of the time if a team switches quarterbacks they are going to be in a rebuilding phase for at least a couple of years no matter how strong the rest of the team is. Will the Panthers fanbase stay loyal during that stretch if that were to occur? If you look at the past history it will tell you no they wouldn't. And thats sad and wrong but the truth.

If anything, the Panther's front office is so loyal within the makeup of the team because of the lack of loyality, precieved or real, of the fanbase. Lets not forget that this isn't a game it's a business. And until Big Cat finds that the fanbase as a whole is like the fans on the huddle, those risks are going to be too great.

[Mr. Scot]

That's a lot of writing to say what could have been said in a single sentence.

I question the franchise's competence and their commitment to winning because they aren't making the moves I think they ought to make.

That's really all it boils down to.

"Franchise age" is honestly something you can factor in when you're discussing how active a fanbase is. When evaluating a team, it's largely an illusion because front offices change fairly often. The Atlanta Falcons are an old franchise, but last year was their first under the leadership of head coach Mike Smith and GM Tom Dimitroff. Given that there's pretty much little to no carryover in philosophy from prior leaders Rich McKay and Jim Mora/Bobby Petrino, this edition of the Falcon franchise is essentially one year old.

Likewise, people suggested that the Panthers are skittish about drafting first round QBs because of Kerry Collins, but the people in charge right now weren't in leadership when Collins was drafted. That decision was made by guys like Dom Anile, Bill Polian and Dom Capers. Marty Hurney didn't arrive until 98, and even then only as a cap guy. Since Hurney's ascension, we've replaced the director of college scouting with good result. New braintrust essentially equals a new start.

I'd add that the suggestion that the team is too vanilla to win it all would have to be considered very ill-timed, given that it comes less than two months after a team that embodies the very philosophy this team wants to emulate (run-first, pass as a complimentary threat, play tough defense, play it safe in free agency) beat a team with the kind of high-flying, pass heavy profile that's all the rage these days. Ball control, defensive teams can win in today's NFL, and anyone who thinks it isn't possible probably wasn't watching this year's Super Bowl.

And in the end, your conclusion is that maybe if the fanbase was more active and vocal, the team would listen more to us? Good Lord, I hope not! A professional coach or GM taking fan opinions into account in their decision making? That notion would be insane even if the fanbase was unanimous in their ideas.

But they aren't...

So let's say you end up with one vocal faction saying "fire Fox" and another vocal faction saying "keep Fox". Which group would you suggest ownership listen to? The one that's bigger? Great. A team run by a democracy of fans. That's guaranteed to be a winner

Sheesh.

There's plenty of things I don't agree with about the way the team is run, but I recognize that I'm just a fan and there's no reason the organization would, or should, take my opinions seriously. The day they actually do? That's when I'll start to worry.

[mantal]

That's a lot of writing to say what could have been said in a single sentence.

That's really all it boils down to.

"Franchise age" is honestly something you can factor in when you're discussing how active a fanbase is. When evaluating a team, it's largely an illusion because front offices change fairly often. The Atlanta Falcons are an old franchise, but last year was their first under the leadership of head coach Mike Smith and GM Tom Dimitroff. Given that there's pretty much little to no carryover in philosophy from prior leaders Rich McKay and Jim Mora/Bobby Petrino, this edition of the Falcon franchise is essentially one year old.

Likewise, people suggested that the Panthers are skittish about drafting first round QBs because of Kerry Collins, but the people in charge right now weren't in leadership when Collins was drafted. That decision was made by guys like Dom Anile, Bill Polian and Dom Capers. Marty Hurney didn't arrive until 98, and even then only as a cap guy. Since Hurney's ascension, we've replaced the director of college scouting with good result. New braintrust essentially equals a new start.

I'd add that the suggestion that the team is too vanilla to win it all would have to be considered very ill-timed, given that it comes less than two months after a team that embodies the very philosophy this team wants to emulate (run-first, pass as a complimentary threat, play tough defense, play it safe in free agency) beat a team with the kind of high-flying, pass heavy profile that's all the rage these days. Ball control, defensive teams can win in today's NFL, and anyone who thinks it isn't possible probably wasn't watching this year's Super Bowl.

And in the end, your conclusion is that maybe if the fanbase was more active and vocal, the team would listen more to us? Good Lord, I hope not! A professional coach or GM taking fan opinions into account in their decision making? That notion would be insane even if the fanbase was unanimous in their ideas.

But they aren't...

So let's say you end up with one vocal faction saying "fire Fox" and another vocal faction saying "keep Fox". Which group would you suggest ownership listen to? The one that's bigger? Great. A team run by a democracy of fans. That's guaranteed to be a winner

Sheesh.

There's plenty of things I don't agree with about the way the team is run, but I recognize that I'm just a fan and there's no reason the organization would, or should, take my opinions seriously. The day they actually do? That's when I'll start to worry.

HOF post...

[mountainpantherfan]

HOF post...

I second that. Very nice Mr. Scot, as usual.

[Fireball77]

I'd add that the suggestion that the team is too vanilla to win it all would have to be considered very ill-timed, given that it comes less than two months after a team that embodies the very philosophy this team wants to emulate (run-first, pass as a complimentary threat, play tough defense, play it safe in free agency) beat a team with the kind of high-flying, pass heavy profile that's all the rage these days. Ball control, defensive teams can win in today's NFL, and anyone who thinks it isn't possible probably wasn't watching this year's Super Bowl.

Or SB 42. Or SB 40. Even SB 41 wasn't won by high flying offense in that game, it was won by good defense and ball control offense and a few big pass plays. It's part of why I think the "franchise QB thing is not a model to emulate. All those last two SB QBs did on their runs as SB champs for was be efficient and make some big plays. They weren't OMGZ!! SOOO SPECTACULAR ONLY A FIRST ROUND FRANCHISE $$ QB CAN AND HAS DONE THAT.

RB, your post was well done and thoughtful though I don't agree with some of it. As far as the guys being DONE by the time Fox cuts them, I do think that at times he has given guys one year too much instead of cutting them one year too early. I would like to see improvement there. I think he may be on the right track now with the Luc thing. I think Luc can still play, but I think the dollar value wasn't there.

[rayzor]

RB, you made some great points.

Up until draft day last year i was calling for Fox and Hurney's heads. While Jake's absence made the season difficult enough, I really didn't believe that Fox was making all the adjustments he could. He kept Carr active for too long. The defense (at least in the first half of the season) was horrible. One goal line series in one game was very emblematic of the fox philosophy of coaching. He was trying to use Foster, yet again, as a power back in a goal line situation. For 3 plays they ran him the same place and each time had the same results...Foster bouncing backwards. We could not move forward because we were trying the same thing over and over and over because "it worked before, it should work now." It didn't matter that we didn't have the same players we did when it worked before. It was maddening. The whole season was. I had this sig made up that, I wish I could have sported in the old huddle:

What they did in acquiring Otah...risking this years 1st rounder showed that (at the time) they had a huge desire to win. They wanted to win and win now. IMO, you can't question that.

They made some bold moves to build the Oline and it worked. They brought in a ton (literally and figuratively) of big guys to try out for the Oline. They brought in two vet WRs to give smith some help. They got rid of (finally) some dead weight...Colbert, Foster, Morgan, Carter, Hartwig, and Carr. Trading Jenks away was a big deal as well. All signs were there that they wanted to move ahead.

In my mind it bought them another year or two. Fox was under contract through 2010. He had two years to make it. At training camp I was impressed over what I saw. The team had a new attitude and spirit that I hadn't seen in a long time. they had the smith/lucas fight and the team handled it incredibly well. I stayed back after the fight and listened to Fox's speech to the team and comments that the players made and I knew that the panthers were going to be OK. Last year was a fun year and gave me reason to have a lot of optimism about next year. 12-4 record and the team is, essentially, intact.

As optimistic as I was, I also saw a good few things that hampered my enthusiasm. The defense was still letting too many things happen. They seemed like they had finally found their way at the beginning of the season but then lost their way again, falling back into some of the same patterns that made them so frustrating. The defense was the thing that really bugged me.

I see the big picture like this:

Owner>GM>HC>Coordinators>position coaches>players>winning season>lombardi

It's a flow chart in my mind. If you aren't getting the desired result, make sure you have the players to get the job done. GM makes sure you have the right players. Position coaches make sure the players are carrying out the game plan and are prepared for it. Coordinators make sure that the game plan is the right one and that they are able to come up with the right one in every situation and be ready for everything. If they can't get the job done, get someone who can. HC is supposed to make sure that everyone is on the same page and that he has the right coaching staff and coordinators to get the job done. He's the big picture guy. If he can't get the job done, get someone who can. The GMs job, as stated earlier, is to make sure you have the right players but also the right HC and coaching staff. If he can't get the job done, get someone who can.

It seems for the most part, we have the players we need to get the job done. QB is a debate but if he can get his mistakes under control, he can do all we need and ask of him. We have a run first or get the ball to smith first offense. Our QB just has to be able to limit mistakes when he is trying to do that.

On defense, there were a couple question marks on players but the obvious was the coaching. We don't have that coaching staff anymore. Doesn't matter how or why they are gone...they are. Addition by subtraction... Ding Dong, the Trgo's gone.

Do I wish the team would have taken a more hardlined approach and just said, sorry, we don't want you back? Yes. They didn't. I think there was something in those new contracts offered that let them know they weren't really wanted. At best, it was a passive aggressive approach and gives me reason to doubt that killer instinct was there.

There were several times throughout the season that they let things get out of control in games. They were content to get ahead and hope that they could maintain the lead. In this game you can't let that happen. You don't just knock the other team down and walk away thinking that you won. You cut their legs off so they can't. We didn't do that enough.

Now who's fault is that? Ultimately it is fox/hurney. It is their responsibility to get the right people in the right jobs. We have another chance to get the right people in the right jobs. We have a new QB coach that, if he can do better than mccoy, will get better production out of our QB, whoever among the 3 we have starting is. We have a new defensive staff that should be able to get our team to cut of the legs of our opponents.

Last year Fox/Hurney bought themselves another year in my book. One last chance to get the job done. Until they don't, I'm going to be optimistic that they can. The same goes with Jake. If they think that he can get the job done...I'm willing to give it one more chance. He has one more year on the contract.

What I essentially want them to do is prove to me that they can improve on last year. Prove to me that they can get better. I don't expect them to have a better record but I do expect them to more than just "break even." I expect the offense to be good enough to pull way ahead of the other team in every game. I expect the defense to shut down the opposing offense every game. Considering next years schedule, they have their work cut out for them. If they can't beat the best (which is who they are going to be playing)...find someone who can get the job done. This is not my job...it is the Panther's job. The thing is, though, is that the Panthers organization's job is to keep the fans happy. Best way for them to keep the fans happy is to win.

Should the fans keep their mouths shut and just go along for the ride? No way. We would have finished the season with David Carr last year had it not been for the vast majority of the fans screaming for his head and crying for Moore.

The panthers should listen to the fans but in no way should they base all their decisions on what the fans want for every situation. The fans have a lot of opinions that may be pretty good and might be a bit informed but we don't have all the facts. We don't have all the resources to make informed decisions. We don't know all the things that are going on the business end.

I want the team to just win. That is what is going to make me happy. I don't really care how they do it...I just want them to do it. Sure I have my opinions as to how it should be done but that doesn't matter. Just win. If you can't get the job done. Find someone who can.

[thefuzz]

Or SB 42. Or SB 40. Even SB 41 wasn't won by high flying offense in that game, it was won by good defense and ball control offense and a few big pass plays. It's part of why I think the "franchise QB thing is not a model to emulate. All those last two SB QBs did on their runs as SB champs for was be efficient and make some big plays. They weren't OMGZ!! SOOO SPECTACULAR ONLY A FIRST ROUND FRANCHISE $$ QB CAN AND HAS DONE THAT.

RB, your post was well done and thoughtful though I don't agree with some of it. As far as the guys being DONE by the time Fox cuts them, I do think that at times he has given guys one year too much instead of cutting them one year too early. I would like to see improvement there. I think he may be on the right track now with the Luc thing. I think Luc can still play, but I think the dollar value wasn't there.

I agree with you almost 100%. I do believe that you do not have to have a franchise QB to win it all, however, a franchise QB makes it much easier to make the playoffs year in and year out.

I do get pretty angry at the FO for this team, but the last few years have been a bit better.

Not signing Peppers and Gross...big mistake...IMO.

Horrible, horrible drafting, again, until the last year or so. Rarely any UDFA pickups that make the team. And yes, being a bit too loyal, especially for the $ that some of the vets are getting.

I am not one screaming at the top of my lungs for a new QB, however I am one who believes that Jake should not be paid as a top 5 QB either. That needs to change, and probably should have been adjusted last year when he was hurt.

[X-Clown]

Not signing Peppers and Gross...big mistake...IMO..

Gross wanted big time LT money last season. Until last season, he hadn't proved that he was worth that top dollar. Had we floated a top dollar for a left tackle contract without him proving that he could do it, how happy would you have been? Hindsight isn't always 20/20. As for Peppers, we offered him a huge deal at the end of his worst season, and continued negotiations throughout the season to make him the top paid defensive player. It's been in his mind that he wants out, so how can we blame the front office for that?

Horrible, horrible drafting, again, until the last year or so. Rarely any UFA pickups that make the team. And yes, being a bit too loyal, especially for the $ that some of the vets are getting...

That seems to have changed for the better with the change in scouting personnel.

[Snake]

Bitch and moan all you want but Fox is still a good coach. We still have consistent Drafts that we pick good players in and we do take chances like we did last year with Otah. Sometimes the peaces come together sometimes they dont. This year was a clear sign that the FO was unhappy with the result as well as the fans. No they didnt take the fug you your fired attitude but chose the your services are no longer needed. We dont know what when down with Trgo but we do know that it worked out the way it needed too if it was planned or not. People hate Delhomme right now but once he starts to win games again its all forgiven and once Meeks gets his players playing we will all forget about how bad it was. I dont know how this year is gonna turn out but we have been successful with less talent and if the injuries dont plague us we should have a good season.

[Fireball77]

I am not one screaming at the top of my lungs for a new QB, however I am one who believes that Jake should not be paid as a top 5 QB either. That needs to change, and probably should have been adjusted last year when he was hurt.

If his salary was top 5 I would agree 100%. His salary is fine IMO, it's about middle of the pack for a starter on their second deal I believe (5 mil or so). His cap hit I have a problem with though. I do believe they have restructured his deal pretty much every year after he got the new one, and that is poor contract management, IMO.

Gross wanted big time LT money last season. Until last season, he hadn't proved that he was worth that top dollar. Had we floated a top dollar for a left tackle contract without him proving that he could do it, how happy would you have been? Hindsight isn't always 20/20. As for Peppers, we offered him a huge deal at the end of his worst season, and continued negotiations throughout the season to make him the top paid defensive player. It's been in his mind that he wants out, so how can we blame the front office for that?

That's pretty much what I was going to reply to fuzz with.. But I do think they have mismanaged some contract stuff in general.

Also, nice post rayzor.

[carpanfan96]

I am not one screaming at the top of my lungs for a new QB, however I am one who believes that Jake should not be paid as a top 5 QB either. That needs to change, and probably should have been adjusted last year when he was hurt.

His salary next season is 6.19 million, not counting bonuses and stuff. After you figure all the bonuses in his cap hit is 11 million.

[Chubbs McGee]

too.......many......words.......brain....meltingggggggg

[Chubbs McGee]

That's a lot of writing to say what could have been said in a single sentence.

That's really all it boils down to.

"Franchise age" is honestly something you can factor in when you're discussing how active a fanbase is. When evaluating a team, it's largely an illusion because front offices change fairly often. The Atlanta Falcons are an old franchise, but last year was their first under the leadership of head coach Mike Smith and GM Tom Dimitroff. Given that there's pretty much little to no carryover in philosophy from prior leaders Rich McKay and Jim Mora/Bobby Petrino, this edition of the Falcon franchise is essentially one year old.

Likewise, people suggested that the Panthers are skittish about drafting first round QBs because of Kerry Collins, but the people in charge right now weren't in leadership when Collins was drafted. That decision was made by guys like Dom Anile, Bill Polian and Dom Capers. Marty Hurney didn't arrive until 98, and even then only as a cap guy. Since Hurney's ascension, we've replaced the director of college scouting with good result. New braintrust essentially equals a new start.

I'd add that the suggestion that the team is too vanilla to win it all would have to be considered very ill-timed, given that it comes less than two months after a team that embodies the very philosophy this team wants to emulate (run-first, pass as a complimentary threat, play tough defense, play it safe in free agency) beat a team with the kind of high-flying, pass heavy profile that's all the rage these days. Ball control, defensive teams can win in today's NFL, and anyone who thinks it isn't possible probably wasn't watching this year's Super Bowl.

And in the end, your conclusion is that maybe if the fanbase was more active and vocal, the team would listen more to us? Good Lord, I hope not! A professional coach or GM taking fan opinions into account in their decision making? That notion would be insane even if the fanbase was unanimous in their ideas.

But they aren't...

So let's say you end up with one vocal faction saying "fire Fox" and another vocal faction saying "keep Fox". Which group would you suggest ownership listen to? The one that's bigger? Great. A team run by a democracy of fans. That's guaranteed to be a winner

Sheesh.

There's plenty of things I don't agree with about the way the team is run, but I recognize that I'm just a fan and there's no reason the organization would, or should, take my opinions seriously. The day they actually do? That's when I'll start to worry.

slow single clap......more joining in.....reaching a crescendo of hearty applause.

awesome post Mr. Scot