Adrian Peterson

[Pantherball]

I will make just a couple of more points and then I will leave you alone Pantherball.

There are only really two games in which you could make a valid argument that offensive turnover really killed us and that is the Green Bay and Atlanta games. The defense still has to account for the Arizona, Chicago, and New Orleans games. All of which we gave up 28 points or more and and only had one turnover.

One turnover should not equate to 28+ points even with an average defense.

And maybe I should ask this a different way. Do you think that the fact that we are last in advanced statistics on defense is because of the offense??

If not then your argument has boiled down to "Our defense isn't very good, therefore are offense has to be really great and have no turnovers in order to win. Therefore if the offense isn't great or has any turnovers it is the offense's fault that we lost"

That is what you are saying and it is stupid on its face. It is ridiculous.

There is a great deal of irony that you bring up the New Orleans game last night.

They scored 62 points. Therefore it is an offensive league, right? I guess you don't want us to pay attention to the fact that they only gave up 7 points and forced 3 turnovers also right??

We forced 3 turnovers yesterday and still gave up 20 points :eek:

We will never be successful unless our defense improves. It is as simple as that. And I think we will improve as we get healthy and as they learn how to run this scheme. But right now we are really, really bad.

You mention advanced statistics, which is why I don't understand how you do not see the correlation between being ranked 5th offensively but 14th in points scored and 16th defensively but 28th in points allowed. Do you understand there is a problem with being ranked 5th offensively but not 5th in points scored, or heck even top 10? That's the anomaly. Those are the points that are spilling over from the offensive stat sheet to our defensive stat sheet. Those are our O's points. Those are turn-over points and blown opportunity points. Those are red-zone issues. Those are points given inside our own 30 or 40 yard lines on interceptions.

And the Saints "gave up 7 points?" I'm actually surprised they gave up 7 against the Colts. Colt's offense blows. Again.....they go hand in hand...offense/defense statistics. Tied at the freaking hip.

Then how come we are successful every time Cam's not turned the ball over THIS year? Our defense didn't improve. The only person that's improved was Cam. And we won, both games.

That tells me you're wrong. Simple as that. We win when Cam and this O plays a complete game. We lose when they don't. End of argument. So yes we CAN be successful without this D improving any further as long as our O plays a complete game.

It's our opponents that need to worry about our offense putting up +400 TOTAL plus yards on them. So far our D's been on the better end of that number.

[jarhead]

not if we come out guns blazing

Ther is a lot of truth to that.The skins could have run on us all day but fell behind.That is our best remedy to the lack of a run defense is get ahead early and make them pass.Unfortunatly that does not work against New Orleans and Greenbay.

AS to why we are 5th in offense and 14th in points look at our penalities in the red zone.With Cam we should have one of the best in the league but with penalities you get 3 instead of 7

As to our run defense it sucks and I could push a fat ass bitch in a wheel barrow though our line for 5 yards.

[Pantherball]

Look I'm going to make this as simple as possible. Before the game:

Offensive rank 5th. Points scored 14th.

Defensive rank 16th. Points scored 28th.

Notice the difference in offense....which is also spilling over on the defensive sheet.

Proof? This past Sunday:

Offensive rank: still 5th : points scored: 4th(tied)

Defensive rank: 17th: points allowed: 8th(tied)

Amazing how it fixed that, no? There were 5 teams with more than 400 yards this Sunday. NONE scored less than 28 points. Our O finally did what it should. It finally met the expectations it put up for itself.

This is what happens when you have an offense that can put up +400 total yards. You're supposed to come out with 30 points a game.

[The_Mango55]

You mention advanced statistics, which is why I don't understand how you do not see the correlation between being ranked 5th offensively but 14th in points scored and 16th defensively but 28th in points allowed.

Those aren't advanced statistics.

We're below average in points allowed because we're below average in forcing FGs in the redzone.

Actually look at the advanced stats before you throw them out.

Do you understand there is a problem with being ranked 5th offensively but not 5th in points scored, or heck even top 10? That's the anomaly.

That's really not that big of a problem. The Panthers are not one of the best 5 offenses in the NFL right now, nor should we expect them to be. They are top 5 in yards but that's meaningless.

Then how come we are successful every time Cam's not turned the ball over THIS year? Our defense didn't improve. The only person that's improved was Cam. And we won, both games.

The defense actually did improve, and Beck and Gabbert are terrible.

Also TEAMS CAN TURN THE BALL OVER AND STILL WIN. We shouldn't demand to never turn the ball over any, we need a defense that can step up if the offense makes a mistake (which happens to literally every single team).

[teeray]

You mention advanced statistics, which is why I don't understand how you do not see the correlation between being ranked 5th offensively but 14th in points scored and 16th defensively but 28th in points allowed. Do you understand there is a problem with being ranked 5th offensively but not 5th in points scored, or heck even top 10? That's the anomaly. Those are the points that are spilling over from the offensive stat sheet to our defensive stat sheet. Those are our O's points. Those are turn-over points and blown opportunity points. Those are red-zone issues. Those are points given inside our own 30 or 40 yard lines on interceptions.

And the Saints "gave up 7 points?" I'm actually surprised they gave up 7 against the Colts. Colt's offense blows. Again.....they go hand in hand...offense/defense statistics. Tied at the freaking hip.

Then how come we are successful every time Cam's not turned the ball over THIS year? Our defense didn't improve. The only person that's improved was Cam. And we won, both games.

That tells me you're wrong. Simple as that. We win when Cam and this O plays a complete game. We lose when they don't. End of argument. So yes we CAN be successful without this D improving any further as long as our O plays a complete game.

It's our opponents that need to worry about our offense putting up +400 TOTAL plus yards on them. So far our D's been on the better end of that number.

What that tells me is that our defense is so bad that the offense can't have even one turnover without giving up 28+ points.

If your argument is that we can only win when our offense has zero turnovers than you are admitting our defense sucks.

Also we aren't 16th in defense. We are dead last. That is my point. The reason I refer to advanced statistics is because they account for penalties, yards per snap, points per possession, forced turnovers, etc.

Yards per game is one of the worst ways to determine how good an offense or defense is because in a vacuum they are meaningless.

[Snake]

If the defense just could keep him to under 100 yards we will win. I still dont think we can beat the toss to the out side though.

[teeray]

Look I'm going to make this as simple as possible. Before the game:

Offensive rank 5th. Points scored 14th.

Defensive rank 16th. Points scored 28th.

Notice the difference in offense....which is also spilling over on the defensive sheet.

Proof? This past Sunday:

Offensive rank: still 5th : points scored: 4th(tied)

Defensive rank: 17th: points allowed: 8th(tied)

Amazing how it fixed that, no? There were 5 teams with more than 400 yards this Sunday. NONE scored less than 28 points. Our O finally did what it should. It finally met the expectations it put up for itself.

This is what happens when you have an offense that can put up +400 total yards. You're supposed to come out with 30 points a game.

Just out of curiosity how many of those teams gave up 28+ points??

And how many losing teams scored more than 20??

How many defenses forced 3 turnover and still gave up 20 points??

[CRA]

And whoever said that offenses are starting to slow down doesn't know what they are talking about. Two weeks ago there was only one team averaging over 30 points a game. The Saints were averaging 30.8. The others were right at ~29. This week there are 4 teams averaging over 30 points a game, on a week when the Patriots were off.

Saints 34.1

GB 32.9

Bills 31.3

Patriots 30.8

Ravens 29.6

So no they are not slowing down, the top offenses have turned it on even more. Let's not even talk about the Saints versus Colts last night...62-7? Again this is an offense driven league and it's not going anywhere.

Where are the Panthers? Not even in the top 10 points scored. We're the only team that's built like those top 4, who is a top 5 offense, and are not in this most important statistic. (Btw, the Ravens are probably the best all around team right now so watch out for them)

This weekend was the first weekend this offense played like it should. This is the first time this year this team played like it should. This is what I have been expecting to see all year long. These are the expectations Rivera is talking about. This is what fans should be expecting.

I'm not worried about stopping Peterson. That's no longer my mentality. That's cautious, defensive, mentality. I am worried about us only scoring 20 with the final 7 when it doesn't matter on teams with the potential to drop 30 on you at will, versus us scoring 27-30 legit points and another 7-10 to put the game away.

We're still not at a point where I feel confident in this O that no matter where we are up or down, when the game is on the line, all we need to do is put the ball in Cam's hands and he closes the game. We're not there. That's the confidence we need to be shooting for. I feel confident our D can give Cam a chance if needed. I still don't feel confident enough to feel like he can do that yet. Because the only way we get there, is not by closing games by being up by 2 scores(and btw, if you notice, the defense DIDN'T need that kind of a cushion yesterday). It's when we're down by 7 or 3, that he comes back from behind and wins the game. That's when you arrive as an offense. We did that once against the Jaguars and I'm not sure you can even call that a legit game.

can't put too much into any stat. Carolina offense is up there....I mean if you take out the monsoon game and look at the offense....they average 30 pts a game (and that would be them in the top 5 in pts scored and yards).

Offense still needs some fine tuning....but it is there. Not unrealstic to think the O could be that good soon to make up for the weak D (and actually help them). Look at Indy as these years.....O can make a D better.

[ed bell]

<snip>

You're the only that fails to see this. And again, your logic is one sided as hell. If we had a GOOD offense we wouldn't be 14th in points scored. It would match up with our overall offense, which is ranked 5th.<snip>

If we had a GOOD offense? So you are saying we are mediocre on offense? Granted we struggled in the red-zone on offense earlier in the year, but that has improved and has even more room for improvement. Right there is the source of the discrepancy between total offense (5th) and points scored (14th). Add only 10 points to the season total and we are in the top 10.

[Pantherball]

can't put too much into any stat. Carolina offense is up there....I mean if you take out the monsoon game and look at the offense....they average 30 pts a game (and that would be them in the top 5 in pts scored and yards).

Offense still needs some fine tuning....but it is there. Not unrealstic to think the O could be that good soon to make up for the weak D (and actually help them). Look at Indy as these years.....O can make a D better.

Not legit points they don't. Those teams average a legit 30 points per game. We're around 22-23. Our stats were padded scoring meaningless touchdowns late in the game. We only did it once. This past Sunday and it was night and day.

It is unrealistic to expect an average defense like ours to prevent a top 5 offense like GB or the Saints to put up their average points scored on us too. Or an average offense like the Falcons which average 22 ppg to also put up their average on us(which they did...the rest were thanks to our O).

It is NOT unrealistic to expect average output out of a type 5 offense. Asking our O to put up 30 points a game is just asking them to do what they should be "averaging". It's not their top potential. It's average. 30 points should be average for this offense. Not enough get this.

[Pantherball]

If we had a GOOD offense? So you are saying we are mediocre on offense? Granted we struggled in the red-zone on offense earlier in the year, but that has improved and has even more room for improvement. Right there is the source of the discrepancy between total offense (5th) and points scored (14th). Add only 10 points to the season total and we are in the top 10.

That's my point. If we are not mediocre on offense, we're not bad on defense. Because the only thing that makes this defense bad...is points allowed. So how come in some people's twisted logic it only applies to ONE SIDE of the team?

This offense is no more average than this defense is bad. The offense however, has PLAYED average which also made our D LOOK bad.

In reality, we have a top 5 offense, and a middle of the pack defense. When our Offense plays like a top 5 offense, and does what it SHOULD be doing, our D also looks like a middle of the line defense.

That's the reality. That was proven on Sunday. The results speak for themselves but I didn't need to see that game to know that. I've seen it all year long. It wasn't our D that was playing under their potential this year up until Sunday, it was our O. We had a top 5 offense all year long with the points output of a mediocre offense, and gave their rightful points away to the other team. That also made our mediocre defense look really pooty. When O capitalizes on their chances and puts out their potential our defense looks exactly like they are: average. A little bit better than average this past Sunday actually because they came in 8th in points allowed.

This defense didn't magically improve in one week. Cam Newton's QB rating did 3 fold over last week though and threw no pics. It fixed everything. Cam, offense and defense, turn overs and most importantl: WIN! It was THAT freaking simple.

[Pantherball]

People need to stop asking this team or this defense to be something they are not, or do something they are not built to do. We are NOT built to hold teams to 17 points or less per game. Stop expecting this week in and week out when it's just not what we are. We ARE built to score 30 points per game.

You guys can bitch and moan about our run D all year long. Keep thinking there's no way to win unless D improves and I'll keep expecting a win every time Cam Newton posts a 100+ QB rating and we have no turn-overs. That's all I watch. That's all I care about.

The more the rookie plays like an NFL QB, the more games we win. The more the rookie plays like a rookie, the more we lose. Defense is ultimately irrelevant in our wins or losses for the remainder of the year. They can either improve or stay the same for all I care. But if Cam plays like he did this Sunday. If this offense as a whole plays like it did this Sunday, we win every damn game from here to the end of the year.

[ed bell]

Legit points? What the hell is the metric for that pooty term? NO hung 62 on Indy...do they get 62 legit points added to their season total, or do you throw our everything after they opened up a three score lead on one of the worst teams in the NFL? Saying that 30 points a game is average is insane. Teams that do this are very likely Super Bowl contenders and their entire team performance contributes to the point total.

All this dancing around after claiming that as long as we have zero turnovers we should go 16-0? There are so many other factors blended together that contribute to losses. It's a team sport.....

[The_Mango55]

I notice you skipped right over mine and teerays posts. Please address those points specifically.