Adrian Peterson

[Pantherball]

Now we have the term "meaningful points"? Meaningful as in points scored when you get the W? How come your simple recepie for this team's success is so complicated?

Look, the 400 ypg benchmark doesn't ensure anything. Look at the teams averaging around that many ypg (I'm going to include the Steelers at 383).....their ppg totals range all the way from 21.6 to 34.1. The turnover ratios amongst these teams is all over the place as well. Why is that? Maybe because the Defense, Special Teams, Red-Zone efficiency, Third-Down efficiency, TOP and penalties are playing a role?

This ultra-simplistic idea that our if our offense turns in a nearly mistake free game at the 400 ypg level is going to trump other problems we have is laughable. There is nothing groundbreaking about saying that limiting turnovers, and/or scoring more points in a game than 31 other teams in the league are averaging greatly increases your chances of winning.

What the heck is there so complicated about 30ppg or 0 turn-overs? What's so complicated about asking the offense to finish games in the 4th quarter? Why do you pretend you don't understand the concept of scoring in garbage time being meaningless?

You guys are making this poo complicated. For me it was that simple: 2-0 when we don't turn over the ball. 0-5 when we do. 1-0 when we score 30ppg or more. 2-0 when Cam and the offense play a complete game on offense for 60 minutes.

There is nothing overly complex about that.

Worrying about run defense, or changing schemes, or special teams, or trading players, or getting new personnel, or next year.....that's complicated. That's hard. What I'm asking is pretty simple and it worked. And it will work every week, this year. And that's without expecting anything more out of our D.

[ed bell]

What the heck is there so complicated about 30ppg or 0 turn-overs? What's so complicated about asking the offense to finish games in the 4th quarter? Why do you pretend you don't understand the concept of scoring in garbage time being meaningless?

You guys are making this poo complicated. For me it was that simple: 2-0 when we don't turn over the ball. 0-5 when we do. 1-0 when we score 30ppg or more. 2-0 when Cam and the offense play a complete game on offense for 60 minutes.

There is nothing overly complex about that.

Worrying about run defense, or changing schemes, or special teams, or trading players, or getting new personnel, or next year.....that's complicated. That's hard. What I'm asking is pretty simple and it worked. And it will work every week, this year. And that's without expecting anything more out of our D.

Sigh.....again...There is nothing groundbreaking about saying that limiting turnovers, and/or scoring more points in a game than 31 other teams in the league are averaging (I was using the point total against Washington...if using 30 ppg, then scoring more than 28 teams are averaging) greatly increases your chances of winning.

As for the JAX game, that was nowhere near a resounding victory, or a "complete game on offense for 60 minutes"...it was an ugly game in horrendous conditions, and one of the big reasons why our ppg average is a little lower than other teams in the neighborhood of 400 ypg. Also I wouldn't call the first 30 minutes of the WASH game all that awe inspiring either.

BTW, scoring 30 points per game or commiting zero turnovers is far from simple.

[Pantherball]

Sigh.....again...There is nothing groundbreaking about saying that limiting turnovers, and/or scoring more points in a game than 31 other teams in the league are averaging (I was using the point total against Washington...if using 30 ppg, then scoring more than 28 teams are averaging) greatly increases your chances of winning.

As for the JAX game, that was nowhere near a resounding victory, or a "complete game on offense for 60 minutes"...it was an ugly game in horrendous conditions, and one of the big reasons why our ppg average is a little lower than other teams in the neighborhood of 400 ypg. Also I wouldn't call the first 30 minutes of the WASH game all that awe inspiring either.

BTW, scoring 30 points per game or commiting zero turnovers is far from simple.

There's a difference between just saying something for the heck of saying something, and saying I expect our offense to score the points they should be scoring, to be in line with what's expected of them based on their yards production. And that us failing on that part combined with our turn-overs was the main reason that kept us from having a winning record, not our D, which is simply the popular-but wrong-thing to blame it on.

And who cares if you have a resounding victory? Why didn't the offense play a complete game? Because to you yards and stats means more than an offense who finishes a game in the 4th quarter?

I don't need my QB to put up 400 yards a game. I just need him to have us finish the game with 1 more point than our opponent with the clock going 0:00.

What Cam did during the Jaguars game is the one thing he needs to show on a regular basis, pretty or not, to be considered a winner. Come back from behind and win the game any way possible. That's a lot tougher to do than cruising to a W with a 2 score cushion. It's what's eluded him in every other loss. So I wanna see that he can do it outside of abnormal weather conditions.

[ed bell]

There's a difference between just saying something for the heck of saying something, and saying I expect our offense to score the points they should be scoring, to be in line with what's expected of them based on their yards production. And that us failing on that part combined with our turn-overs was the main reason that kept us from having a winning record, not our D, which is simply the popular-but wrong-thing to blame it on.

And who cares if you have a resounding victory? Why didn't the offense play a complete game? Because to you yards and stats means more than an offense who finishes a game in the 4th quarter?

I don't need my QB to put up 400 yards a game. I just need him to have us finish the game with 1 more point than our opponent with the clock going 0:00.

What Cam did during the Jaguars game is the one thing he needs to show on a regular basis, pretty or not, to be considered a winner. Come back from behind and win the game any way possible. That's a lot tougher to do than cruising to a W with a 2 score cushion. It's what's eluded him in every other loss. So I wanna see that he can do it outside of abnormal weather conditions.

Now you are totally changing your arguement....no wonder it's so confusing, you keep changing your points. I don't care about the stats. You are the one hung up on the 400 ypg should equal X points deal. It ain't that simple, but you keep saying it. Now you say " I just want him to come back from behind and be a winner" without mentioning that the entire team has to be involved, Offense, defense and Special teams.

Our turnover ratio could use improvement, but it isn't terrible.....the Defense, on the other hand, is struggling with the injuries and the run....and its been hurting our chances. If you think the performance the Defense is turning in every week is good enough, then I don't know what to tell you. There have been plenty of moments the Defense could have contributed to a win for us (the Saints 6 minute drive and Forte trucking us for the score that put the game out of reach), but you say its wrong to hang any of our problems on the D?

Look, I wanted to see Cam have 4th quarter comebacks in the games we lost, but he's only had three real chances to do so (Arizona, Jacksonville and NO* [*if 50 seconds is a real chance]) ...this isn't always an option. The ypg and ppg stats don't mean all that much when you allow 28, 30, 34, 30 and 31 points. That is the entire team's problem, BTW....plenty of blame to spread around in those games. I think we've turned the corner and are improving, but the run D continues to be a big problem. I'd rather the team work on that than talk about the relationship between turnovers, ppg and ypg. Adrian Peterson is a problem...lets hope we have an answer.....done.

[Pantherball]

Now you are totally changing your arguement....no wonder it's so confusing, you keep changing your points. I don't care about the stats. You are the one hung up on the 400 ypg should equal X points deal. It ain't that simple, but you keep saying it. Now you say " I just want him to come back from behind and be a winner" without mentioning that the entire team has to be involved, Offense, defense and Special teams.

Our turnover ratio could use improvement, but it isn't terrible.....the Defense, on the other hand, is struggling with the injuries and the run....and its been hurting our chances. If you think the performance the Defense is turning in every week is good enough, then I don't know what to tell you. There have been plenty of moments the Defense could have contributed to a win for us (the Saints 6 minute drive and Forte trucking us for the score that put the game out of reach), but you say its wrong to hang any of our problems on the D?

Look, I wanted to see Cam have 4th quarter comebacks in the games we lost, but he's only had three real chances to do so (Arizona, Jacksonville and NO* [*if 50 seconds is a real chance]) ...this isn't always an option. The ypg and ppg stats don't mean all that much when you allow 28, 30, 34, 30 and 31 points. That is the entire team's problem, BTW....plenty of blame to spread around in those games. I think we've turned the corner and are improving, but the run D continues to be a big problem. I'd rather the team work on that than talk about the relationship between turnovers, ppg and ypg. Adrian Peterson is a problem...lets hope we have an answer.....done.

I have not changed anything. My argument still remained the same throughout. When we have 0 turn-overs we are 2-0. When we don't we are 0-5. When we finish games in the 4th quarter we are 2-0. Our Offense and Cam(turn overs, inability to finish) was the primary reason for our losses, not our defense. Our O's inefficiency and turnovers is the direct result of why our 5th ranked offense is 14th in points scored and our 16th ranked defense is 28th in points allowed. It should be averaging 30ppg. When our O averages that and limits turn overs our D also improves points allowed. The only thing that saw any dramatic improvement in overall performance between all of our other games and yesterday was Cam Newton. As long as Cam repeats his performance we win. As long as Cam throws 2 pics but we also manage to score 30 points or more, which is what we should be doing, and we finish in the 4th like we did against the Jaguars or yesterday, we will likely STILL win. Regardless of what our run defense does with Peterson.

I have said these same points over and over and over and over in different ways and different examples.....and I'm done with this argument. Seriously. I'm sick and bored from just re-typing the same words.

[CRA]

Because we average 416 total yards a game, we're ranked 5th in total offense, and have blown countless scoring opportunities.

Because we are the lowest scoring 400+ yard per game team which simply means inefficiency compared to to other offensive powerhouses: turn-overs, red-zone issues, stupid penalties, rookie QB.

Because our O has basically been irrelevant as an offense in a full quarter of the game in all of our losses?

We have a rookie QB....if he had mastered the few things and done what you claim he should be doing.....it would mean he would be playing on par with Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. Your argument is essentially the rookie should be one of the greats from day one. It is retarded.

[teeray]

I have not changed anything. My argument still remained the same throughout. When we have 0 turn-overs we are 2-0. When we don't we are 0-5. When we finish games in the 4th quarter we are 2-0. Our Offense and Cam(turn overs, inability to finish) was the primary reason for our losses, not our defense. Our O's inefficiency and turnovers is the direct result of why our 5th ranked offense is 14th in points scored and our 16th ranked defense is 28th in points allowed. It should be averaging 30ppg. When our O averages that and limits turn overs our D also improves points allowed. The only thing that saw any dramatic improvement in overall performance between all of our other games and yesterday was Cam Newton. As long as Cam repeats his performance we win. As long as Cam throws 2 pics but we also manage to score 30 points or more, which is what we should be doing, and we finish in the 4th like we did against the Jaguars or yesterday, we will likely STILL win. Regardless of what our run defense does with Peterson.

I have said these same points over and over and over and over in different ways and different examples.....and I'm done with this argument. Seriously. I'm sick and bored from just re-typing the same words.

Your point from the beginning is that our defense is so bad we have to score 30 points or not turn the ball over to have a chance to win.

In other words, our defense sucks. Which has been my point as well.

You wouldn't have to re-type your words if you realized how foolish it sounds.

[CRA]

And honestly, enough of the rookie poo. It was old a month ago. We're mid-way through the season. He has 7 NFL games under his belt now, plus another 4 pre-season games. After Sunday, that should have gone out the window. He has more game experience than The Golden Calf of Bristol and nobody's giving that dude excuses. He's like half a QB. He wins games in the 4th quarter and OT and Fox still hates him. I can understand excuses for a guy like that, but Cam's expectations should be on a completely different level. And as of right now our clown needs to step it up and continue finishing games and learn how to maintain composure, not just under pocket pressure, but game-winning pressure.

Make no mistake. Washington was a relatively easy win. The Jaguars win was much tougher for him than Washington.

Lol, a month ago Cam was making his first NFL start......and him being a "rookie" was old then?

What were Peyton Manning expectations as a rookie then? he wasn't your typical rookie......

[Pantherball]

Last time I checked a month ago was after Cam already had two 400 yard back to back games, set a number of rookie records, made the Superbowl champs look beatable and had a 4th quarter come back win from behind to beat the Jaguars.

And Cam and Peyton are nothing alike so, why even go there? Peyton didn't have the size, athleticism or ability to make plays on the run like Cam does. Peyton's the prototypical traditional QB and Cam's a mix between a Vick and a traditional QB. But Cam's closer to Ben, Vick, or Josh Freeman than Peyton as far as his transitioning ability. Rushing ability, mobility and pure athleticism make a rookie more likely to make plays as a QB and win some games whereas your traditional QB is stuck in the pocket. If it was Luck oth, I'd agree with you as I expect him to struggle more if he's asked to carry a team. He's more like Manning.

4 = the highest number of rushing TD's Peyton Manning's ever had in a season.

157 = the total number of rushing yards Peyton Manning's ever had in a season.

As a rookie: 0 TDs and 91 rushing yards for the season.

Cam's already nearly doubled the best Peyton's ever achieved in rushing TD's and already surpassed his rushing yards total and that's when compared to an entire season in Manning's entire career. Cam did this in his first 7 games.

So yeah....the only thing him and Peyton have in common is that they were both 1st picks and they are both QB's who throw a football. I doubt there were too many defenses worried about Peyton's mobility or afraid to blitz him or worries about his rushing ability in the red-zone. NFL teams adjusted for Cam after his first game against Arizona, or at least tried to. And yeah I have a completely different expectation level from Cam as of about a month ago. Especially now 7 games in.

[redbuddha]

I don't really care about DVOA rankings and very few people do. It doesn't explain WHY they are what they are. It uses a million different scenarios which are rarely trends or actual statistics, and even includes pre-season-based calculations. Strength of schedule for example. Something that is a pointless word thrown around and means nothing on each and every Sunday or each and every year. You could have just as easily pointed to points allowed and said we're 28th. It's the same argument.

It doesn't take a freaking mathematician or analyst to figure out we are a team averaging 416 yards per game, but our points don't equal up to that number. We should be averaging 30 legitimate points and we only did it once.

Let me simplify this for you:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestats

If you look at offense what number jumps out at you. We are no less than 10th in many of the offensive categories. But in two categories we were really bad. Interceptions and LOS/DR. Now are interceptions were inline with other top offenses that throw as much or more than we do. However, We had the worst starting field position of any team in the league. Meaning we had to go on longer drives, say 80 yards vs 60 yds. That is a direct correlation to special teams and the lack of defensive turnovers.:incazzato:

If you go down to the Defense we see that we are ranked no higher than 19th in any defensive category. We rank 31st in points given up and td's given up.

That means to me that once an offense gets started on us its like a huge stone rolling downhill, we can't stop them via interception, fumble or turnover on downs.

So although both sides make valid points, both sides really need to reach out and help each other. Offense needs to be more efficient in the red zone, special teams needs to get us better field position, and the defense needs to get the ball back or just give up a field goal. :gnorsi:

[redbuddha]

Legit points? Saying that 30 points a game is average is insane. Teams that do this are very likely Super Bowl contenders and their entire team performance contributes to the point total.

Baltimore won a game a couple of weeks ago where the offense scored 13 points and the defense scored 21 points.

TD 11:58 Jameel McClain 6 Yd Fumble Return (Billy Cundiff Kick)

FG 06:27 Billy Cundiff 38 Yd

TD 01:14 Ray Rice 3 Yd Run (Billy Cundiff Kick)

SECOND QUARTER

FG 13:19 Billy Cundiff 38 Yd

TD 08:11 Jarret Johnson 26 Yd Fumble Return (Billy Cundiff Kick)

THIRD QUARTER

TD 08:49 Lardarius Webb 73 Yd Interception Return

Final Score Ravens 34 Jets 17

Another thing I noticed in the Ravens vs Jaguars game. Can we get a turnover immediately after the other team takes one from us.

[Camdemonium]

Not gonna read this whole thing, but did we decide if AP was gonna set a new record or not?

[Pantherball]

We have a rookie QB....if he had mastered the few things and done what you claim he should be doing.....it would mean he would be playing on par with Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. Your argument is essentially the rookie should be one of the greats from day one. It is retarded.

I'm not asking for him to master anything. I still don't see where you get that I am asking that by saying: "play a complete game, including the 4th quarter".

Yes I want my rookie QB to play in the 4th quarter and finish the game and when necessary do it with comeback wins....like a lot of other rookies have done before. Go look at Andy Dalton's wins this year. And I know he's not a rookie, but look at what The Golden Calf of Bristol just did in his 4th start. Cam himself already did against Jacksonville.

I'm asking him to win in the 4th. If you wanna win you gotta be able to win the 4th quarter too and finish the game. You can't expect your defense to close the game out beginning with the 4th quarter.

It's simple: don't choke in the 4th. And yeah I guess that means be more like Brady. Less like Romo.

[ed bell]

Not gonna read this whole thing, but did we decide if AP was gonna set a new record or not?

Well, it ain't up to us, but I'd sure like to think that the focus of our D will be squarely on AP considering that Ponder is wet behind the ears....whether that keeps him from trucking the Defense is another story.....I decided he ain't, FWIW. :)