Adrian Peterson

[Pantherball]

What about the times our defense has given up a score when we were leading or tied in the second half, or in the fourth quarter?

In the second half? Are you serious? That's what I said was ridiculous before. Expecting a D to completely shut out a team in the second half or even the 4th quarter.

The defense closed out the game against the Jaguars when we were up. The defense closed out the game against the Redskins yesterday too. Again, they DID their job when they had to.

If you are referring to the Falcons game, it was our O that threw the pic in our own half of the field. Not our D.And the Saints...we were up thanks to our third quarter interception by our defense and a drive which spilled over for 2 minutes. After that the score was 27-23 with 12:32 minutes left to play and Saints had the ball. You honestly expect our D to shut out the Saints for 12 minutes in the 4th quarter?

Both teams offenses had two possessions after that point. Only one scored points for the win. We had the final possession too.

Our D gave us so many chances to win that game it's not even funny. It was the forced turnover by the defense that put us in a position to take the lead in the first place and gave us a short field starting at the 41 yard line! But you guys give them NO freaking credit. Same against Atlanta: 4 offensive drives in the second half where we came up empty. 22 minutes where we scored nothing. And the only time the D breaks was after Cam's pick.

[teeray]

In the second half? Are you serious? That's what I said was ridiculous before. Expecting a D to completely shut out a team in the second half or even the 4th quarter.

The defense closed out the game against the Jaguars when we were up. The defense closed out the game against the Redskins yesterday too. Again, they DID their job when they had to.

If you are referring to the Falcons game, it was our O that threw the pic in our own half of the field. Not our D.And the Saints...we were up thanks to our third quarter interception by our defense and a drive which spilled over for 2 minutes. After that the score was 27-23 with 12:32 minutes left to play and Saints had the ball. You honestly expect our D to shut out the Saints for 12 minutes in the 4th quarter?

Both teams offenses had two possessions after that point. Only one scored points for the win. We had the final possession too.

Our D gave us so many chances to win that game it's not even funny. It was the forced turnover by the defense that put us in a position to take the lead! But you guys give them NO freaking credit. Same against Atlanta: 4 offensive drives in the second half where we came up empty. 22 minutes where we scored nothing. And the only time the D breaks was after Cam's pick.

It was our defense that gave up 31 points not our offense. Those interceptions may have hurt our chances to win the game but quit acting like it is okay that the defense gave up 31 points because we had three turnovers (2 of which had no bearing on the defense). It isn't. That is where you sound stupid.

And you act like the defense gave our offense a chance in the Falcons game when they needed to. They gave up 17 points in the 4th quarter alone. IN the second half the Falcons had 4 possessions. They scored on 3 of them. Two being touchdowns. They did nothing to help our team. They had exactly one stop. :lol:

They don't have to shut anyone out. Just keep them out of the endzone more than twice a half. Seems reasonable.

I don't care about total yards. Just keep them out of the endzone and make them kick mostly field goals. That is enough for this team. Nothing outrageous to expect.

[Pantherball]

It was our defense that gave up 31 points not our offense. Those interceptions may have hurt our chances to win the game but quit acting like it is okay that the defense gave up 31 points because we had three turnovers (2 of which had no bearing on the defense). It isn't. That is where you sound stupid.

And you act like the defense gave our offense a chance in the Falcons game when they needed to. They gave up 17 points in the 4th quarter alone. IN the second half the Falcons had 4 possessions. They scored on 3 of them. Two being touchdowns. They did nothing to help our team. They had exactly one stop. :lol:

They don't have to shut anyone out. Just keep them out of the endzone more than twice a half. Seems reasonable.

I don't care about total yards. Just keep them out of the endzone and make them kick mostly field goals. That is enough for this team. Nothing outrageous to expect.

The offense also had 4 back to back possessions against Atlanta. You're laughably biased Teeray. You keep ignoring this. You have one sided vision. If this argument was like a pair of eyes, one of yours would be replaced with a Cam ornament. I swear to God I have never seen such a biased person to have blinders on that narrow. They did nothing to help our team either. Our D did shut out Atlanta in the third quarter. Atlanta scored on 3 out of 4...we scored on 0 out of 4. They did however throw a damn interception in the 4th which lead to us losing a tied game. He also threw an interception in the endzone at the end of the half to cost us another 7 points. And yes that part has nothing to do with our defense, but it has everything to do with winning and losing.

And how about the Bears...forget this?

[(Shotgun) C.Newton pass short middle intended for L.Naanee INTERCEPTED by D.Moore at CAR 20. D.Moore for 20 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Do you realize the defense isn't even on the freaking field during that situation? And don't even get me started on GB. Is it that hard for you to face reality? All of those pics resulted in 7 points in games we lost by 7 points or less.

If you live in a Teeray Cam Newton love bubble an interception that is a direct result of points on our D or puts the other team on the field and field goal scoring range at worst, is the defense's fault.

And I never said it was OK. I said they would never give up 31 points if it wasn't for the offense turning over the ball so damn much and failing to finish games. They would not be 28th in points allowed and this offense wouldn't be 14th in points scored. The D would be giving up 21-24 points a game and our O would be averaging 30...which means we win most if not all of our games: which is exactly what happened yesterday and should happen every week.

[mav1234]

And the only time the D breaks was after Cam's pick.

We gave up 17 points in the fourth quarter. It's physically impossible for the defense to have given up 17 points on a single drive. In addition, they had already given up points to the Falcons that quarter before Cam's interception.

It's not just about the points or yards, but also forcing punts and getting off the field. Our defense has a lot of trouble with that.

I don't know when our expectations for Cam became "play every game 100% perfect," but that's an unrealistic expectation for a rookie. I also understand why the expectation of a great defense may be unreasonable given our current defensive situation as well with injuries and what not, but our defense simply must be better.

edit: The thing is, our turnover differential isn't all that terrible (fairly average, I think it's -2 on the year). Obviously the offense deserves some of the blame for losses, but our defense is getting ripped apart. How do you account for the distance our offense has to go due to poor field position from bad defense and bad special teams play? Maybe we'd have more touchdowns if we didn't need 80 to 90 yards for a TD drive and instead only had to go 50 or 60...

[The_Mango55]

Do you realize the defense isn't even on the freaking field during that situation? And don't even get me started on GB. Is it that hard for you to face reality? All of those pics resulted in 7 points in games we lost by 7 points or less.

Yeah that's because the defense sucks. An interception, unless it's a pick 6, shouldn't result in an automatic touchdown. With our defense it does because we can't hold teams to FGs.

[Pantherball]

Look I don't know what happened to this board. But when a team with a top 5 offense goes into the 4th quarter tied ....and they have the ball....whatever the heck happened prior to that point, doesn't even matter. I mean that's how I watch games, that's how I view them, that's how most people I know view them. Most people expect an offense to drive down the field and get something, especially an offense that's ranked top 5. There's still a FULL quarter left to play. Our O got nothing. I DO expect at least a FG or a punt at worse. Instead they threw a pick...which resulted in us losing the lead by 7. And the 17 points came after that. The whole freaking team unraveled. That pick cost us 7 points, and what was bad,....is that even after that, they got nothing and they gave the ball right back when they still had a chance to tie. That's why our D got scored on 17 points but it could have just been 3 in that game and wouldn't have made a damn difference as bad as our O was choking.

Outside of the offensive turn-overs which resulted in at least 7 points every game, this middle of the line D has been scored on exactly what you would expect...20-23 ppg. This offense has not done what was expected.

I don't expect a rookie to be a perfect. I also don't expect my D to be perfect or even top 10. I do expect a top 5 offense to score like a top 5 offense. It's that simple. Fix that, like they did yesterday and everything gets fixed. Cam could have thrown 2 pics, and we could have STILL put up 30-35 to win. We leave points on the field, regardless of turn-overs. I also expect the fans to take notice that when an offense with a rookie QB gives away 10-14 points per game....it's probably going to cost us some games and make our D look worse than it is.

So to get back on topic, mark my words: as long as Cam plays like he did yesterday we will continue to win, no defense fixes required. Rushing D be damned. Put up 30 against the Vikings and keep the turnovers to under 1 and I could care less about AP. This offense is GOOD for at least one TD per quarter. That's not unrealistic. And if you can't keep it to 1 turn-over....then do something about that efficiency and put up 35-37 points because they are there.

[mav1234]

I don't consider us a top 5 offense.. Maybe a top 5 "passing" team but overall our offense is a bit lower than that imho because you need to factor in scoring etc. Ultimately I think we actually have relatively few turnovers given the prolific passing nature of our offense and the fact we have a rookie QB.

Obviously our entire team blew in the 4th quarter against Atlanta... but to say "Well we win when Cam doesn't turn the ball over!" may be technically true but ignores facets of the game which are not revealed by such a simple interpretation.

The fact that our defense is so bad that given a single turnover (which isn't all that uncommon in the NFL) requires us to put up nearly 40 points should tell you something about the state of the defense.

What you're asking just isn't all that realistic for this team. It seems to me that our defense has to improve, because asking our rookie to put up 300+ yards and 2+ TDs every single game without ever turning it over is simply ridiculous. Especially since we already have fewer turnovers than some of the better offenses in the NFL, and are pretty close to some of the others.

We do have a problem with scoring points, but you have to understand how big field position is in that. I'm not trying to say Cam played a good game against Atlanta (it wasn't as terrible as his stat line looks, but it wasn't great), but when our offense has to drive the entire length of the field every single drive, it's going to be tougher to punch it in.

[teeray]

The offense also had 4 back to back possessions against Atlanta. You're laughably biased Teeray. You keep ignoring this. You have one sided vision. If this argument was like a pair of eyes, one of yours would be replaced with a Cam ornament. I swear to God I have never seen such a biased person to have blinders on that narrow. They did nothing to help our team either. Our D did shut out Atlanta in the third quarter. Atlanta scored on 3 out of 4...we scored on 0 out of 4. They did however throw a damn interception in the 4th which lead to us losing a tied game. He also threw an interception in the endzone at the end of the half to cost us another 7 points. And yes that part has nothing to do with our defense, but it has everything to do with winning and losing.

And how about the Bears...forget this?

Do you realize the defense isn't even on the freaking field during that situation? And don't even get me started on GB. Is it that hard for you to face reality? All of those pics resulted in 7 points in games we lost by 7 points or less.

If you live in a Teeray Cam Newton love bubble an interception that is a direct result of points on our D or puts the other team on the field and field goal scoring range at worst, is the defense's fault.

And I never said it was OK. I said they would never give up 31 points if it wasn't for the offense turning over the ball so damn much and failing to finish games. They would not be 28th in points allowed and this offense wouldn't be 14th in points scored. The D would be giving up 21-24 points a game and our O would be averaging 30...which means we win most if not all of our games: which is exactly what happened yesterday and should happen every week.

Ummmm... I said the interceptions hurt us in terms of winning or losing the game. What I also said is that we gave up 31 points and only one turnover had any bearing on our defense whatsoever. We gave up 17 points in the fourth quarter.

Not sure you realize I am talking about our pooty defense and not the offense. Two of those turnovers made no difference in terms of effecting our defense.

Yes we shut them out in the third. They had one possession and moved the ball to midfield and pinned our offense back inside the twenty yard line. It was the only stop we had in the entire second half.

The only game that turnovers really badly hurt our defense was the GB game. Not to win the game but as it effects the defense

Again you revert back to trying to discredit me as a blind Cam Newton hugger. Classic fail debate tactic.

[CRA]

I don't consider us a top 5 offense.. Maybe a top 5 "passing" team but overall our offense is a bit lower than that imho because you need to factor in scoring etc. .

Only thing holding it back is not converting enough in the redzone and that is mainly self inflicted stuff.....

they easily could be a top 5 offense when all is said in done.....

[mav1234]

Only thing holding it back is not converting enough in the redzone and that is mainly self inflicted stuff.....

they easily could be a top 5 offense when all is said in done.....

I agree but I do not think we are top 5 right now. I do think we can get there and I hope we do by the end of the season. Chud seems to be trusting our RBs more, which I think will be key for us continuing to improve on offense.

[beastson]

We definitely top 5. We should be averaging 30. We getting close

[teeray]

Look I don't know what happened to this board. But when a team with a top 5 offense goes into the 4th quarter tied ....and they have the ball....whatever the heck happened prior to that point, doesn't even matter. I mean that's how I watch games, that's how I view them, that's how most people I know view them. Most people expect an offense to drive down the field and get something, especially an offense that's ranked top 5. There's still a FULL quarter left to play. Our O got nothing. I DO expect at least a FG or a punt at worse. Instead they threw a pick...which resulted in us losing the lead by 7. And the 17 points came after that. The whole freaking team unraveled. That pick cost us 7 points, and what was bad,....is that even after that, they got nothing and they gave the ball right back when they still had a chance to tie. That's why our D got scored on 17 points but it could have just been 3 in that game and wouldn't have made a damn difference as bad as our O was choking.

Outside of the offensive turn-overs which resulted in at least 7 points every game, this middle of the line D has been scored on exactly what you would expect...20-23 ppg. This offense has not done what was expected.

I don't expect a rookie to be a perfect. I also don't expect my D to be perfect or even top 10. I do expect a top 5 offense to score like a top 5 offense. It's that simple. Fix that, like they did yesterday and everything gets fixed. Cam could have thrown 2 pics, and we could have STILL put up 30-35 to win. We leave points on the field, regardless of turn-overs. I also expect the fans to take notice that when an offense with a rookie QB gives away 10-14 points per game....it's probably going to cost us some games and make our D look worse than it is.

So to get back on topic, mark my words: as long as Cam plays like he did yesterday we will continue to win, no defense fixes required. Rushing D be damned. Put up 30 against the Vikings and keep the turnovers to under 1 and I could care less about AP. This offense is GOOD for at least one TD per quarter. That's not unrealistic. And if you can't keep it to 1 turn-over....then do something about that efficiency and put up 35-37 points because they are there.

Yes as long as Cam completes 80% of his passes and the offense never turns the ball over we might win because of our defense. Awesome point. :rolleyes:

But if he has one turnover it is the offense's fault if the defense gives up 30 points and we lose.

Got it.

Wouldn't it be better if we had the type of defense that didn't require our rookie QB to play perfect offense in order to win. That is what even average defenses can do for you.

Your stance is the dumbest thing that has ever said on the Huddle by far (replacing KJDaniels pass:run ratio equals NFL success formula) and you have completely validated my point that our defense is so bad that our offense can never turn the ball over once in order to win a game or even keep a team under 28 points. But if that is your position and it makes you feel like you've proven something, congratulations.

[CRA]

I don't expect a rookie to be a perfect.

So to get back on topic, mark my words: as long as Cam plays like he did yesterday we will continue to win, no defense fixes required. Rushing D be damned. Put up 30 against the Vikings and keep the turnovers to under 1 and I could care less about AP. This offense is GOOD for at least one TD per quarter. That's not unrealistic. And if you can't keep it to 1 turn-over....then do something about that efficiency and put up 35-37 points because they are there.

Cam played pretty much perfect on Sunday.....

and if Cam is expected to put up 37 a game (given how this offense runs and that it all goes through game.... putting such a huge load on a rookie with no offseason work)......then you are expecting him to be perfect IMO.

You are asking a rookie QB to be the #1 offense in the NFL.....b/c that is what Carolina would be.

[X-Clown]

In my eyes, Cam Newton has yet to post a 4th quarter come back for the win cause that Jaguars game was a damn mess. I wanna see clutch factor. I wanna see what he does when the game is on the line. I wanna see him do something even The Golden Calf of Bristol did yesterday.

Next time we are down by 7 points or less in the 4th quarter and we have the ball I wanna see him put us up, tie or win the game. When he can do this then we can win with 1 or more turn-overs. Until that time we won't.

You have got to be joking. You have put a foolish, unrealistic expectation of Cam having to carry us to a top 5 offense in his rookie season under a system that is brand new to 90% of our offense, and then back that up by saying you want to see him perform like The Golden Calf of Bristol did yesterday. Did you actually look at any context to how The Golden Calf of Bristol's comeback took place against the mighty 0-6 Miami Dolphins? Bill Barnwell wrote a great column about it today.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7143065/debunking-tim-The Golden Calf of Bristol-myth

Far be it from us to ruin an admittedly great story, but let's be real about the The Golden Calf of Bristol plaudits being thrown around after the Broncos' 18-15 comeback over the Dolphins on Sunday. The Golden Calf of Bristol certainly deserves some of the credit, but not the massive outpouring of praise that is being thrown his way.

The Win Probability chart at advancednflstats.com for this game tells the true story of what happened. When The Golden Calf of Bristol took over on his own 20-yard line down 15 points with 5:23 left, both Broncos and Dolphins fans were leaving the stadium in Miami, and they weren't wrong to do so. The Broncos' chances of winning were estimated to be around 1 percent. The Golden Calf of Bristol proceeded to lead his most impressive drive of the day, going 80 yards in eight plays, throwing a five-yard touchdown pass to Demaryius Thomas.

For all that work, the Broncos' chances of winning had improved all the way to … 2 percent. Teams with an eight-point lead that are about to receive the kickoff simply don't lose very frequently; it takes an expected onside kick to pick it up, and teams recover expected onside kicks only about 20 percent of the time. When the Broncos were able to recover the kick, their win expectancy improved to 12 percent; the onside kick was six times more valuable than The Golden Calf of Bristol's drive. If that figure seems low, consider that the Broncos still needed to drive 50 yards, score, pick up a two-point conversion, and then win in overtime. They had momentum in their favor, but so have plenty of other teams in this scenario who haven't been able to pick up the W.

The Golden Calf of Bristol then proceeded to take advantage of a short field. Starting on his own 44-yard line, The Golden Calf of Bristol drove the team 56 yards in 10 plays, highlighted by a gorgeous 28-yard throw to (and equally impressive catch from) Daniel Fells. After that, Denver converted the two-pointer on a The Golden Calf of Bristol run1 and the Broncos' win expectancy was pushed all the way up to 46 percent. They'd made an incredible comeback, but they were still underdogs heading into overtime.

After they won the overtime coin toss and traded possessions with the Broncos, the Dolphins remained favorites. When Daniel Thomas converted a second-and-2 to give the Dolphins a new set of downs on their own 43-yard line, the Dolphins only needed to travel about 25 more yards to pick up a game-winning field goal. They win an estimated 67 percent of the time in that situation.

That, of course, led to the final dramatic swing. Broncos linebacker D.J. Williams sacked Matt Moore on the ensuing play, producing a single-play swing that was bigger than any of The Golden Calf of Bristol's drives. The Broncos went from a win expectancy of 33 percent to 78 percent by recovering the fumble, and while they proceeded to gain only two yards on the subsequent drive, they converted another short field into points to win the game.

On Sunday, The Golden Calf of Bristol was given a total of 15 possessions. Four of them started with 56 yards or less to go for an offensive touchdown. Not coincidentally, of the four, three were his final three drives, and he produced a total of 11 points on those drives. His other 11 drives all started deep in his own territory, with six of them beginning on the 20-yard line and only one beyond the 25 (a drive that started on the Miami 41 that resulted in a missed field goal). Ten of those drives resulted in eight punts, a missed field goal, and a fumble. They gained, on average, less than 12 yards.

This isn't a one-week trend, either. When he came in against the Chargers last Sunday, The Golden Calf of Bristol started with three consecutive drives inside his own 31-yard line. The Broncos punted on all three drives. On the ensuing two possessions, though, The Golden Calf of Bristol started from his own 49-yard line and the San Diego 41-yard line. With the short fields, he proceeded to score two touchdowns. It can't be much simpler.

A lot of what we're crediting to The Golden Calf of Bristol is actually the impact of things that are totally out of his control, a combination of field position, defensive turnovers, and a miracle on special teams. He deserves some of the plaudits that have come his way over the past two Sundays. Just not all of them.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7143065/debunking-tim-The Golden Calf of Bristol-myth