Delhomme Extension?

[Nu Guns]

It only answers the question if you throw the real world out the window.

The Panthers prefer mid-level free agent QBs and do not subscribe to the franchise QB model. Throw in that there is no indication Jay Cutler could be obtained with anything the Panthers would be willing to give up short of seriously mortgaging the future and hamstringing our defense.

Would you do all of that just to get Cutler?

I wouldn't.

If the Panthers FO does not believe in drafting a QB, then going with a mid-level free agent QBs is retarded. When does this work? Grossman:eek: and Dilfer are the only two in recent memory I can think of that fit that bill. Both those teams had A+ defenses. Mid-level Qb's wont lead us to the dance.When Delhomme went down, we had Carr and old man Vinnie !!!

Vinnie !! The front office philosphy on Qb's in mind boggling.

The philosophy of not drafting a QB in exchange for mid-level free agent QBs makes no sense. Both those schemes leads us nowhere

[King Taharqa]

The Panthers FO has been scared of drafting a young QB with talent and potential ever since they bombed with Kerry Collins. They did it once and failed so they're very terrified of attempting it again. They prefer to roll the dice with journeymen and undrafted QBs. Their insistence to stick with Jake is nothing more than them not having the ability to scout and develop potential QBs. When you look at the franchises who have the hardware in their trophy cases, all of them won with guys they picked (often early) and developed into studs.

[carpanfan96]

The Panthers FO has been scared of drafting a young QB with talent and potential ever since they bombed with Kerry Collins. They did it once and failed so they're very terrified of attempting it again. They prefer to roll the dice with journeymen and undrafted QBs. Their insistence to stick with Jake is nothing more than them not having the ability to scout and develop potential QBs. When you look at the franchises who have the hardware in their trophy cases, all of them won with guys they picked (often early) and developed into studs.

I agree that was the case, I also agree that the team is still afraid to pick a qb early because of what happened with Collins.

That being said, I also believe that we now have the offensive staff and players in place for us to draft a QB early and develop that player. Heck with our Oline and rb duo, A rookie qb could come in and have success.

It's just drafting the right one for you team. I don't expect Carolina to draft a QB early this draft, because of needs else where, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hurney and fox were made to pick one next season, if this coming season doesn't pan out.

I just don't see Fox going anywhere anytime soon, unless we have an absolutely disastrous season. I could however see someone making him pick a Qb though. You never know our QB coach could be high on someone in this draft in the 3rd or 4th round.

[Skew]

The Panthers FO has been scared of drafting a young QB with talent and potential ever since they bombed with Kerry Collins. They did it once and failed so they're very terrified of attempting it again. They prefer to roll the dice with journeymen and undrafted QBs. Their insistence to stick with Jake is nothing more than them not having the ability to scout and develop potential QBs. When you look at the franchises who have the hardware in their trophy cases, all of them won with guys they picked (often early) and developed into studs.

Very well said.

:slowclap:

[Skew]

I agree that was the case, I also agree that the team is still afraid to pick a qb early because of what happened with Collins.

That being said, I also believe that we now have the offensive staff and players in place for us to draft a QB early and develop that player. Heck with our Oline and rb duo, A rookie qb could come in and have success.

It's just drafting the right one for you team. I don't expect Carolina to draft a QB early this draft, because of needs else where, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hurney and fox were made to pick one next season, if this coming season doesn't pan out.

I just don't see Fox going anywhere anytime soon, unless we have an absolutely disastrous season. I could however see someone making him pick a Qb though. You never know our QB coach could be high on someone in this draft in the 3rd or 4th round.

Also well said.

[Nu Guns]

Hence we have a problem in Carolina

[Mr. Scot]

Yes, this is the same organization, correct me if I'm wrong, that says that they don't believe in drafting a QB high because "they take too long to develop" but will willingly select a talented RB and give him limited playing time for two years before he becomes the feature guy. This is the same team that drafts Thomas Davis with the 14th overall pick and uses him as a utility LB/safety his rookie year, but we don't like to work with high picks to gradually develop them over time.

Not at the position which has the absolute highest learning curve of any on the field, that being the QB slot. Murph printed the quotes from Hurney (I forget which thread).

Matt Moore is nowhere near as talented nor has as good a head on his shoulders as Aaron Rodgers. To use him in the same vain as Rodgers is a reach.

Didn't say he was, although their relative success remains to be seen. The point though is that we have a QB we're willing to develop, and a new QB coach as well.

At first you told me a team needs a 100% upgrade in order to make an investment and then you tell me you believe in taking QBs with high picks. So how do you bridge those two claims? Even I realize that it's a risk, but a necessary one. The Panthers don't probably because the shot in the dark that became Jake Delhomme convinced them that they can just grab any low level guy and they have a decent chance of panning out.

Most teams that do use a high pick on a QB are in position to do so because they have an awful record and are generally rebuilding. We haven't been in that position for a while, and hopefully we won't be anytime soon. In the position we are now, I wouldn't use a high pick on a QB. If we were in that situation though, I'd be in favor of it.

And to be accurate, it's not that the Panthers don't believe in drafting QBs, but they don't like using high picks. They prefer high picks be used on guys who could have an impact sooner than a minimum of three years down the road.

Truthfully, John Fox's record has shown he doesn't like rookie starters in general, although he's willing to go with them at certain positions. QB and WR are not among those positions.

Whatever teams don't think that mid-level veterans probably aren't making much noise because the last 4 superbowl victors had high pick QBs under center, and people like Tom Brady are clearly an exception, not the rule.

Go back over history and you'll find a mix of guys that were high picks vs guys who weren't as Super Bowl champs. There's no one player acquisition formula that's guaranteed magic.

NO, but by no means is their philosophy going to pull the wool over my eyes. Their philosophy is probably destined to hinder the Panthers' potential until it changes.

Ironically enough, there's a player listed in one of your above posts as refutation of one of my points that has a fair share of multiple turnover games in his history, including a six turnover performance just this past season. Do you know which one?

[Mr. Scot]

The Panthers FO has been scared of drafting a young QB with talent and potential ever since they bombed with Kerry Collins. They did it once and failed so they're very terrified of attempting it again. They prefer to roll the dice with journeymen and undrafted QBs. Their insistence to stick with Jake is nothing more than them not having the ability to scout and develop potential QBs. When you look at the franchises who have the hardware in their trophy cases, all of them won with guys they picked (often early) and developed into studs.

Maybe, but I'm not sure how valid that is. Outside of the Richardsons, the Panther front office that's in place now has very few elements left over from the one that drafted Collins.

[CatMan72]

Do I really need to answer that ?

Please do, because when I look at the roster behind Delhomme I see a guy that's proven he's not a starter (McCown) and a guy that hasn't proven anything (Moore).

[frash.exe]

Not at the position which has the absolute highest learning curve of any on the field, that being the QB slot. Murph printed the quotes from Hurney (I forget which thread).

Didn't say he was, although their relative success remains to be seen. The point though is that we have a QB we're willing to develop, and a new QB coach as well.

Most teams that do use a high pick on a QB are in position to do so because they have an awful record and are generally rebuilding. We haven't been in that position for a while, and hopefully we won't be anytime soon. In the position we are now, I wouldn't use a high pick on a QB. If we were in that situation though, I'd be in favor of it.

And to be accurate, it's not that the Panthers don't believe in drafting QBs, but they don't like using high picks. They prefer high picks be used on guys who could have an impact sooner than a minimum of three years down the road.

Truthfully, John Fox's record has shown he doesn't like rookie starters in general, although he's willing to go with them at certain positions. QB and WR are not among those positions.

Go back over history and you'll find a mix of guys that were high picks vs guys who weren't as Super Bowl champs. There's no one player acquisition formula that's guaranteed magic.

Ironically enough, there's a player listed in one of your above posts as refutation of one of my points that has a fair share of multiple turnover games in his history, including a six turnover performance just this past season. Do you know which one?

Ultimately what it boils down to here is who buys into Fox's old school philosophy of the quintessential "game manager" Joe Schmo QB complement to a dominant running game and a defense over the prolific passer, and the ones who don't and instead know that the game has evolved recently so much from what happened more than 5 years ago that all phases need to be free of weakness, that QB play has grown to be a more important phase of the game than ever before and you better have a damn good signal caller if you want to make it in this game, and it takes more than just a defense to win a championship in this day. If you ask Fox he'll probably tell you all he needs to win a superbowl is a Jake caliber QB and then my next question is, "why don't you have your ring yet?"

Even if the Panthers have never been awful it still doesn't solve the problem that a better QB wouldn't have turned the ball over and would've kept us in the game and most QBs that are better than Jake were drafted 1st or 2nd round. If no one player loses a game for his team then I don't see how you can get much closer to what Jake did against Arizona, and it wasn't an aberration or something we'd never seen before, albeit in smaller doses.

Oh, btw on your last question, if the mystery guy is Ben Roethlisberger, because he's the closest I could find that had multiple turnover games, well then my answer to you is at least come playoff time he buckled down and accounted for only one turnover the entire postseason instead of completely falling apart at home with a week off. Jake obviously did not learn from any of his mistakes against Tampa and Oakland and once again forced throws into double, triple coverage like he's always done, and it's not likely to end.

Whether I like it or not the tribe however has spoken I admit and Fox is fatally committed to the slow deterioration of Jake Delhomme's career and I am either prepared to admit that I was wrong if somehow Jake's play surges back to what he was in his prime or readily say that John Fox's formula has failed him if it doesn't and stays the same or gets worse. Somehow, for me, the latter seems closer to reality.

But just because I'm a fan does not obligate me to entertain myself with delusions of grandeur that Jake's going to re-surge and throw up the cliched "in fox i trust" while inserting multiple stupid thumbs up smilies like some people do around here (not you). I will root for Jake and my intuitions to be false but at this point I don't believe in him, because I don't expect much out of him.

[mountainpantherfan]

I'd like to point out a couple of things.

1) The Panthers wanting to extend Delhomme makes perfect sence on the teams part as it will save them cap space and means absolutely nothing about who the starting QB will be even this season.

2) Putting much stock into anything Hurney or Fox say in the offseason is pointless.

The reason I say this is because I don't see Delhomme signing an extention. And he would be stupid to do so. Like Mr. Scot pointed out the possibilty of a uncapped year would give Delhomme a lot of options and leverage in neogiating with the Panthers that he currently does not have.

The Panthers personal feelings towards Delhomme, or any player for that matter, have nothing to do with running the team. So Fox's comments to me are nothing more than what boils down to flirting as ultimantly Fox doesn't sign, draft or release players. I do believe Fox and Hurney have a close working relationship as coach and GM but don't think for a second that Hurney isn't the final say in these matters.

Truely, the bottom line here is that fans place too many absolutes on the Panther's staff when in all reality there are probably no absolutes. The only absolute I feel is worthy of Fox, Hurney and Richardson is that these men want to make money and win football games. Personal feelings and loyalties are nice but that is not what ultimantley drives the decisions made.

[outlaw4]

Maybe, but I'm not sure how valid that is. Outside of the Richardsons, the Panther front office that's in place now has very few elements left over from the one that drafted Collins.

Not sure what the Richardsons believe on using high picks on QB's.

When Fox and Hurney decide to find their next franchise QB, for our and their sake, they better get it right or they are GONE. Just ask Kiffin (Russell), Crennel (Quinn), Green (Leinart), Shanahan (Cutler) and Nolan (Smith). I don't think that our current F.O. (or most others in the league) will get a second chance if a high profile QB is drafted and becomes a bust, a nuisance, or simply not a winner.

[Mr. Scot]

Ultimately what it boils down to here is who buys into Fox's old school philosophy of the quintessential "game manager" Joe Schmo QB complement to a dominant running game and a defense over the prolific passer, and the ones who don't and instead know that the game has evolved recently so much from what happened more than 5 years ago that all phases need to be free of weakness, that QB play has grown to be a more important phase of the game than ever before and you better have a damn good signal caller if you want to make it in this game, and it takes more than just a defense to win a championship in this day. If you ask Fox he'll probably tell you all he needs to win a superbowl is a Jake caliber QB and then my next question is, "why don't you have your ring yet?"

Even if the Panthers have never been awful it still doesn't solve the problem that a better QB wouldn't have turned the ball over and would've kept us in the game and most QBs that are better than Jake were drafted 1st or 2nd round. If no one player loses a game for his team then I don't see how you can get much closer to what Jake did against Arizona, and it wasn't an aberration or something we'd never seen before, albeit in smaller doses.

Oh, btw on your last question, if the mystery guy is Ben Roethlisberger, because he's the closest I could find that had multiple turnover games, well then my answer to you is at least come playoff time he buckled down and accounted for only one turnover the entire postseason instead of completely falling apart at home with a week off. Jake obviously did not learn from any of his mistakes against Tampa and Oakland and once again forced throws into double, triple coverage like he's always done, and it's not likely to end.

Whether I like it or not the tribe however has spoken I admit and Fox is fatally committed to the slow deterioration of Jake Delhomme's career and I am either prepared to admit that I was wrong if somehow Jake's play surges back to what he was in his prime or readily say that John Fox's formula has failed him if it doesn't and stays the same or gets worse. Somehow, for me, the latter seems closer to reality.

But just because I'm a fan does not obligate me to entertain myself with delusions of grandeur that Jake's going to re-surge and throw up the cliched "in fox i trust" while inserting multiple stupid thumbs up smilies like some people do around here (not you). I will root for Jake and my intuitions to be false but at this point I don't believe in him, because I don't expect much out of him.

So you want to fire Fox as well?

And a "better QB" wouldn't have had a multiple turnover game? Think you can conclusively state that no "better QB" has had an awful performance? If so, you'll be contradicting one of your own prior posts.

And no, it isn't Roethlisberger.

[rayzor]

i am going to love the meltdown that comes after jake gets his extension.

it's going to be hilarious.