Steelers DL Coach Agrees With Pep

[panthers55]

My take is that Peppers is doing exactly what he wants to do with the end game to take care of himself. He said he won't play for the Panthers in order to intimidate us into not franchising him. When that didn't work he refused to sign it so he can control the negotiations and who we talk to. He continues to leak information in order to swing things in his favor.

Is he doing anything wrong? No he has the right to do exactly was he is doing. But he clearly doesn't care about the Panthers interests and is doing this for himself nothing more. Is he a villian? No, but he surely isn't a victim either. He could have handled this much better than he has. And he is clearly either ringleading this circus through his agent or certainly condoning the plan. So I have a hard time absolving him of any responsibility either.

[panthers55]

Looks like the agent is doing just fine. all pep has to do is sign a piece of paper and hios client gets 17 mill, if not his client gets traded to someone his client wants because his client has been advised in a way that he now holds ALL the cards...good agent, no GREAT agent

Who says he didn't?

Who says he didn't?

At the compeltion of contract, he is no longer their property and furthermore *NEWSFLASH* he does not look like nearly as big of an asset to anyone else as he does to us and has all the WRONG baggage

hurney played it by the book when he should have looked outside the box. this thing is blowing up in his, no, our faces and will NOT get better...by the book...where in the hell is there a "how to be a good GM" book in this day of free agency? There's not one.

He is working against a system that worked against him first. WHY IN THE HELL would he give in at this point? And WHO IN THE HELL was stupid enough to not have this foresight?

Okay mister GM, what would you have done instead of what Hurney did?

Let him walk?

Change the defense to a 3-4 to make him happy?

Offer him more money?

You are a fine critic which is easy. Even with the advantage of hindsight whch Hurney didn't have, how would you have solved this?

[carolinarolls]

My take is that Peppers is doing exactly what he wants to do with the end game to take care of himself. He said he won't play for the Panthers in order to intimidate us into not franchising him. When that didn't work he refused to sign it so he can control the negotiations and who we talk to. He continues to leak information in order to swing things in his favor.

Is he doing anything wrong? No he has the right to do exactly was he is doing. But he clearly doesn't care about the Panthers interests and is doing this for himself nothing more. Is he a villian? No, but he surely isn't a victim either. He could have handled this much better than he has. And he is clearly either ringleading this circus through his agent or certainly condoning the plan. So I have a hard time absolving him of any responsibility either.

Maybe he is not completely innocent, sure. But who is? And who would be fool enough to go about this with innocence and caring first on their mind? Ever?

I did not give a damn about one employer I have ever left as a whole and I don't care about them now. I don't think he is required to care and I doubt many players that move from one team to another keep a soft place in their hearts for their former employer.

To think he should care and handle the situation better for the sake of the panthers is just not realistic to me. Sure, it would be nice, but I can't fault him for not laying down in the street so the Panther FO doesn't get their feet muddy as they pimp him out to every scrub team in the league.

[panthers55]

Maybe he is not completely innocent, sure. But who is? And who would be fool enough to go about this with innocence and caring first on their mind? Ever?

I did not give a damn about one employer I have ever left as a whole and I don't care about them now. I don't think he is required to care and I doubt many players that move from one team to another keep a soft place in their hearts for their former employer.

To think he should care and handle the situation better for the sake of the panthers is just not realistic to me. Sure, it would be nice, but I can't fault him for not laying down in the street so the Panther FO doesn't get their feet muddy as they pimp him out to every scrub team in the league.

Have you ever left a job on good terms? Have you left for something better or were you fired. It sure makes a big difference in terms of how you feel about them.

The issue for Peppers is that he has to work with the Panthers whether he wants to or not. He can make all the deals he wants but unless the Panthers agree he is not going anywhere. To say that he is not the Panthers property is not entirely true. As a franchised player his rights belong totally to the Panthers. Unless we agree to a trade he plays for us or no one. He can make a million a game or nothing.

The issue for him is how badly does he want out? If he wants out as badly as he says he does then he will expand his list of acceptable teams. If he doesn't care that much he will make a play for only those teams he wants and in the end will come back if we don't agree to a trade. For now the ball is in his court.

[panthers55]

Cmon Marty "Crolls" Hurney,

How would you solve the Peppers issue??

[carolinarolls]

Have you ever left a job on good terms? Have you left for something better or were you fired. It sure makes a big difference in terms of how you feel about them.

The issue for Peppers is that he has to work with the Panthers whether he wants to or not. He can make all the deals he wants but unless the Panthers agree he is not going anywhere. To say that he is not the Panthers property is not entirely true. As a franchised player his rights belong totally to the Panthers. Unless we agree to a trade he plays for us or no one. He can make a million a game or nothing.

The issue for him is how badly does he want out? If he wants out as badly as he says he does then he will expand his list of acceptable teams. If he doesn't care that much he will make a play for only those teams he wants and in the end will come back if we don't agree to a trade. For now the ball is in his court.

55,

I left for the right reasons and was not forced out. Sure they are nice in some cases and I still have certain individual contacts but there came a time when each position just wasn't for me any longer. I don't feel bad. Waling out is tough sometimes but I was over it before I got out of the lot. And to be truthful I consider that a blessing.

I agree on the "property" statement of course but you have to think about what kind of "property" he is right now and what type of "property" he could be if he stays. It' is too risky to have him come back especially under these circumstances in my opinion. The potential for this to get worse is too great. I can't read the future anymore than you but I can make and educated guess and my assessment is that as crazy as it sounds he should have been allowed to walk.

I would have let him walk. I would have cut losses and sent a statement to the league that he really is no longer worth messing with and let him walk. I would have made the statement that we have to focus on the issues we have in front of us and we have to focus on those players who want to be in Carolina. I would have counted my gained time as a player in free agency as the asset I gained by making this decision.

This would be based on two things:

The fact that I had every reason to believe that the guy really wanted out

and

the collective baggage he carries coupled with the tug-of-war that I foresaw.

I would also count not having to go through any of this and knowing how to spend my time and direct my office for the spring and summer as a huge gain over what I would have to go through to "hopefully" (fingers crossed) get something worked out in a trade and then "hopefully" (fingers crossed) make that pic or trade for something that actually adds to the mix instead of "is better than letting him walk and getting nothing in return".

[panthers55]

55,

I left for the right reasons and was not forced out. Sure they are nice in some cases and I still have certain individual contacts but there came a time when each position just wasn't for me any longer. I don't feel bad. Waling out is tough sometimes but I was over it before I got out of the lot. And to be truthful I consider that a blessing.

I agree on the "property" statement of course but you have to think about what kind of "property" he is right now and what type of "property" he could be if he stays. It' is too risky to have him come back especially under these circumstances in my opinion. The potential for this to get worse is too great. I can't read the future anymore than you but I can make and educated guess and my assessment is that as crazy as it sounds he should have been allowed to walk.

I would have let him walk. I would have cut losses and sent a statement to the league that he really is no longer worth messing with and let him walk. I would have made the statement that we have to focus on the issues we have in front of us and we have to focus on those players who want to be in Carolina. I would have counted my gained time as a player in free agency as the asset I gained by making this decision.

This would be based on two things:

The fact that I had every reason to believe that the guy really wanted out

and

the collective baggage he carries coupled with the tug-of-war that I foresaw.

I would also count not having to go through any of this and knowing how to spend my time and direct my office for the spring and summer as a huge gain over what I would have to go through to "hopefully" (fingers crossed) get something worked out in a trade and then "hopefully" (fingers crossed) make that pic or trade for something that actually adds to the mix instead of "is better than letting him walk and getting nothing in return".

I think those who believe that Peppers holding out is killing the team and keeping us from being able to participate in free agency will be very disappointed if and when we do trade Peppers. Because we aren't going to go crazy with signings no matter what. If we were really desperate to make moves we would have extended Jake or restructured Smith or cut Lewis or made several moves which would free up cap space.

I also don't agree that this is consuming the FO's time and energy away from other issues. I read that Fox and Hurney are on the road every day checking out draft players. Hurney and Fox as we speak are at the owner's meeting. If you believe them, since Peppers hasn't signed the tender, they aren't wasting any time talking to anyone since they are effectively barred from any talks.

If we end up only getting a second rounder then it may not have been a bad deal to let him go and you will look like a sage. But if we get a 1st and 3rd like KC got for Jared Allen, then Hurney will be looking good and people like you advocating to cut him loose without compensation will appear foolish.

One thing we don't know if whether Pepper's really wants out. He said he wanted to get out but players like Gross who play opposite him in practice all day say that isn't true. Frankly I don't know which is true. One way to tell will be whether he widens his preferred team list if a deal lingers on. If he doesn't, then he may be fine staying. If he does then he may be indicating that he wants out at all costs.

In either case I doubt that this is causing huge issues or monopolying the team's resources. I expect they knew well before any of us that this is where things were headed. In fact the careful language used by Hurney and Fox to not alienate Peppers is likely because they knew that he may very well be back here. I expect they will welcome him back with open arms and not really care what fans think. If they don't care what folk's think about Jake they won't care about Pepper's either.

I could be wrong but I figure that fans and folks like you are a lot more worried or concerned about how this is working out than Fox or Hurney are. They know this is a business and this is how things get done. They are being methodical and careful in their words and actions. Just like they meticulously prepare for the draft, they do the same for free agency and I expect that when Pepper's refused their offer last summer, they realized that things would be prolonged and complex.

[carolinarolls]

I think those who believe that Peppers holding out is killing the team and keeping us from being able to participate in free agency will be very disappointed if and when we do trade Peppers. Because we aren't going to go crazy with signings no matter what. If we were really desperate to make moves we would have extended Jake or restructured Smith or cut Lewis or made several moves which would free up cap space.

I also don't agree that this is consuming the FO's time and energy away from other issues. I read that Fox and Hurney are on the road every day checking out draft players. Hurney and Fox as we speak are at the owner's meeting. If you believe them, since Peppers hasn't signed the tender, they aren't wasting any time talking to anyone since they are effectively barred from any talks.

If we end up only getting a second rounder then it may not have been a bad deal to let him go and you will look like a sage. But if we get a 1st and 3rd like KC got for Jared Allen, then Hurney will be looking good and people like you advocating to cut him loose without compensation will appear foolish.

One thing we don't know if whether Pepper's really wants out. He said he wanted to get out but players like Gross who play opposite him in practice all day say that isn't true. Frankly I don't know which is true. One way to tell will be whether he widens his preferred team list if a deal lingers on. If he doesn't, then he may be fine staying. If he does then he may be indicating that he wants out at all costs.

In either case I doubt that this is causing huge issues or monopolying the team's resources. I expect they knew well before any of us that this is where things were headed. In fact the careful language used by Hurney and Fox to not alienate Peppers is likely because they knew that he may very well be back here. I expect they will welcome him back with open arms and not really care what fans think. If they don't care what folk's think about Jake they won't care about Pepper's either.

I could be wrong but I figure that fans and folks like you are a lot more worried or concerned about how this is working out than Fox or Hurney are. They know this is a business and this is how things get done. They are being methodical and careful in their words and actions. Just like they meticulously prepare for the draft, they do the same for free agency and I expect that when Pepper's refused their offer last summer, they realized that things would be prolonged and complex.

I am not suggesting that a piece of paper awaiting a signature that will likely never come is monopolizing any resources. I am suggesting that without ANY knowledge of how much money they have or what position they may have to draft from they are not able to work very efficiently. They are flying blind right now

They are sitting on their hands and the fact that they are scouting players everyday suggests that they are merely blanketing. Sure they look busy but they are not dealing from strength. They have no clue if they will or will not be in a position to draft ANY of the players they are looking at from a draft position status and a money status.

And for the record it does not take a sage to foresee any of this and getting a 2nd for Pep right now would shock me to no end and make me very happy.\

And I hope I am wrong and end up looking foolish for the sake of the Panthers. I just don't see that happening this time.

[panthers55]

I am not suggesting that a piece of paper awaiting a signature that will likely never come is monopolizing any resources. I am suggesting that without ANY knowledge of how much money they have or what position they may have to draft from they are not able to work very efficiently. They are flying blind right now

They are sitting on their hands and the fact that they are scouting players everyday suggests that they are merely blanketing. Sure they look busy but they are not dealing from strength. They have no clue if they will or will not be in a position to draft ANY of the players they are looking at from a draft position status and a money status.

And for the record it does not take a sage to foresee any of this and getting a 2nd for Pep right now would shock me to no end and make me very happy.\

And I hope I am wrong and end up looking foolish for the sake of the Panthers. I just don't see that happening this time.

And what I am saying is that they aren't flying blind. I believe when they franchised him they did so with the full intent that they would pay him 16.8 million and will still have enough money to pay their draft picks and the few free agents they will entertain. They have other options to free up cap space that they intend to exercise if need be and will do so when they need to. Until then they are not in a panic or hurry to get things done. This may not be plan A but was surely plan B or C and it is unfolding as they thought it would. They aren't creating more cap space because they have no reason to. If and when they need to do it, then they will. If you look at their moves like releasing Lucas, they did it when they had to and not before.

As for getting a 2nd for peppers and nothing more, personally I figure that is stupid. I will be very disappointed if we take that deal. I would rather we keep him for another year and do the same thing next year when there may not be a cap so his 20 million dollar hit won't be a big deal. After all we will have paid him 0 guaranteed money and doled out 36 million after 2 more years and he will be going on 32 which is a lot less than the 30 million guaranteed, 80 million dollar he wants in a long term contract. At some point he will sign his tender or sit out the year. He has already said he won't sit out. So we wait until he signs the tender and reports to camp and then we decide what to do with him if he doesn't perform or some other team makes a play for him.

Most of you folks advocating action now would be terrible GMs and are likely poor poker players. You have to appear in control and methodical and never let them see you sweat. Hurney is very good at that. Now it is a waiting game to see who cracks first.

The panic many people feel is self generated. I don't think Fox and Hurney are feeling it. They are proceeding according to plan and there is nothing wrong about what they are doing.

[Fireball77]

They have no clue if they will or will not be in a position to draft ANY of the players they are looking at from a draft position status and a money status.

I honestly don't understand this thought. They have no first rounder, there is a pool of $$ just for teams to sign their rooks that is part of the cap. How would whatever happens with Pep rule out anyone they want to draft with their current stable of picks? Since you later stated that you would be happy with a second rounder for him, it can't be because you think the first round pick could be restricted to a certain position due to what Pep is getting.

Hey P55...remember when you and I had this conversation almost 2 years ago over lunch about the possibility Pep could/should be franchised this year?

[rayzor]

Most of you folks advocating action now would be terrible GMs and are likely poor poker players. You have to appear in control and methodical and never let them see you sweat. Hurney is very good at that. Now it is a waiting game to see who cracks first.

The panic many people feel is self generated. I don't think Fox and Hurney are feeling it. They are proceeding according to plan and there is nothing wrong about what they are doing.

absolutely true.

[carolinarolls]

we'll all (inc. me) hope that you guys are right and I am wrong

[Skew]

we'll all (inc. me) hope that you guys are right and I am wrong

Why weren't you bitching last year about Hurney when Pep counted 14 mill against the cap? It's only 2.7 mill more this year.

[Mr. Scot]

Really this guy just made the 4-3 sound bad cause he runs the 3-4. You can stunt and and move players around to make it more difficult. Really the team that executes is the team that wins.

Honestly, a run heavy offense like the Panthers run can really wear down a 3-4 if you execute properly. That's how the Packers killed us in 96.