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A few thoughts everyone should remember about Sunday

PiratePanther189

By PiratePanther189,
in Carolina Panthers

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panthers55 Grand Master

panthers55

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I asked this 3 pages ago.

Yeah I am done here but posted in another thread. Honestly after giving it thought and rereading maccoby's seminal works I don't think much of his commentary about narcissistic leaders apply to Newton. The visionary on the team is Richardson not Newton. On the football side you could argue that Hurney is the visionary but frankyl newton is analogous to a mid level manager. He is only in charge of 11 guys for crying out loud, not even the whole team.

There are other much better models of leadership to describe Newtons role from a positional and situational point of view. Not only is the term narcisistic a narrowly defined construct which is not the same as when Freud coined it a century ago, but it really doesn't apply to Newton given his role and position on the team.

Much ado about nothing.

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PantherFanForLife Newbie

PantherFanForLife

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Since I seem to be quoted repeatedly for pages after i quit the fight I will again get things back on track.

PFFL a few things.

Freud is not considered a very good psychological reference for modern day psychology. His theories have largely been discredited. He is the father of psychology due to his keen observations and use of them to infer psychological intent. He was the first to do that despite the fact that his attributions and definitions were too rooted in sexual context which reflected the times in which he lived. A common psychological theme is that things repressed in society frequently exhibit themselves in various psychopathology. Freud was also credited with coining the terms ego, Id and superego and discussing the unconscious. But to repeatedly quote him as a definitive source shows your lack of understanding about current thought in psychology. His theories were flawed as were his conclusions. Which necessarily makes your line of thinking discredited as well. So my reference was more current and in line with current thinking. Secondly you miss what the point of my conversation which was to pick a random reference to show in the modern use of the word, narcissist is widely used synonymously with negative characteristics associated with NPD. It was not to compare him with Freud. If I wanted to compare theorists I could have picked a number of more emminent ones to discuss. But like usual you skew a passage and totally take it out of context to make some obscure point not germaine to the discussion.

Next you use nonsequitor logic in discussing sadists and narcissists as if they are connected and they are not except tangentially. For example we already discussed that some sociopaths are narcissistic. Many sadists are narcissistic but healthy narcissists are not. Some narcissists are murderers but most are not. Some narcissists are Romanian but most are not. So using your logic it could be inferred that some narcissists could be Romanian murdering sadistic sociopaths but we surely wouldn't connect the two just like if some narcissists were short we wouldn't logically infer that height and narcissism are connected. In addition the type of narcissism connected with sociopoathic sadistic behavior is not the narcissism we are connecting in a healthy fashion but the NPT variety. When we discussed sadistic behavior not being connected to narcisism we were talking about it being incompatible with empathy not the lack of it.

So general thinking in psychology is that narcissism and particularly the positive attributes you claim to ascribe to it are not related to sadism at all. Psychopaths are usually sadists and most are narcissistic but that is incompatible with what you were describing as the positive elements.

Lets review here. You went on for pages saying narcissism and NPD were not the same. You go on to say that narcissism can be lots of things good or bad but you talk about the good and bad parts as if narcissists have elements of both. If that is true then to have both you have to have elements of NPD and you are not a normal healthy narcissist

And then it ignores the elephant in the room which is that after if you define narcissism as NPD, it has no relevance to Newton being a narcissist by your own definition. And if you say he only has the healthy elements then who cares and why the cautionary tale in the OP. Why are we arguing??

Over time you have totally proved our premise which Newton is not a narcissist in a negative way and you could have used the term leader, self confident, etc instead. If you want to call him a narcissist and describe it as a positive thing then do so by all means. But understand that the majority opinion of the definition of the word is negative and doesn't apply to Cam. Stop going down bunny trails on Freud and narcissism definitions and go back and show how that now we agree that narcissism is seen in a negative connotation it applies to Newton

So Newton either is a normal person who like most athletes has the positive aspects of narcissism with no NPD and therefore no dark side or if he has a dark side he has NPD. If he has no dark side then this whole discussion and your whole original premise has been as discredited as Freud has been in the last 30 years.

Let's get one thing straight. The only heavy spinning going on here is by you guys.

First. Stop boxing me in as if I'm strictly going off of Sigmund Freud's description of narcissism. I am well aware how old Sigmund Freud's work is. It would make my line of thinking skewed, or discredited, except for the fact that I never based my line of thinking strictly on Sigmund Freud. Sigmund Freud came into the equation, when I was arguing with Flopping, that Maccoby's idea that narcissists can make great leaders, and listing some off, isn't a new concept. That it is something even Sigmund Freud said a long time ago!

My point was to show you that it is old as dirt. Now you proceed to spin things as if I am using strictly Freud's work for my knowledge on narcissism. I'm not. I never did. I'm using all my personal knowledge and have so from the beginning, which also includes Freud.

Second. Not only are you spinning, but you are also back pedaling. You strictly made a statement that a sadist is not a narcissist. That's just plain false. Stop backpedaling. Just admit you didn't know that. It's that easy, and shows some character.

You have continued to contradict yourself over and over and making statements that are simply false. All I did was point it out. Making such false statements throughout discredits you, not me, and your knowledge of narcissism.

And you still didn't get it right:

Next you use nonsequitor logic in discussing sadists and narcissists as if they are connected and they are not except tangentially. For example we already discussed that some sociopaths are narcissistic.

See this shows your continued ignorance and lack of understanding of psychology, narcissists and sadists. So here let me repeat it for you:

All sadist are narcissist. All sociopaths are narcissists too! And yes they are connected. Only a full blown narcissist, whose sadistic personality traits are among the most prominent will ever be categorized as a sadist. It takes a big time narcissist to become a sadist. Because instead of using admiration or fame to feed his narcissistic supply, he gets off on causing pain to others. So once again, you are wrong: all sadists are narcissists. Same for sociopaths.

And you wanna know why?

Because we are all narcissists in different amounts, something I stated in my initial reply to you:

Everybody has narcissistic traits, including you, and when it comes to careers, sports, or positions of power, this is where a narcissist thrives.

It took you 20 pages to finally get something I knew and expressed so in my initial post, and yet you continue to talk about how your knowledge is superior.

Lets review here. You went on for pages saying narcissism and NPD were not the same. You go on to say that narcissism can be lots of things good or bad but you talk about the good and bad parts as if narcissists have elements of both. If that is true then to have both you have to have elements of NPD and you are not a normal healthy narcissist.

Third. Yes let's review! Now there's something I did actually say all along. Narcissist do have both good and bad sides. However, "elements of NPD" is another term shows lack of knowledge on the matter, so I wouldn't keep using it if I were you. NPD doesn't have any additional "elements".

NPD is simply what is referred to when a person is diagnosed with the disorder. And yes, that is seen as a negative, because typically the only time a person is actually diagnosed with NPD, is when they did something self-destructive that ended up with them going to a psychologist or psychiatrist.

When a person is diagnosed with NPD, it means his narcissistic traits are so off the charts, that it has affected his life in a negative, and self destructive manner. And that's exactly what I described in my first post. when I compared two different types of athletes. That doesn't mean that a person who has off the charts narcissistic traits will end up being diagnosed with NPD, because it is NOT outside the realm of a narcissist to be extremely narcissistic but still be able to operate in society! That's why once again, some of the biggest narcissist are thriving and making history like...Floyd Mayweather for example. He's someone I characterize as a narcissist.

And once again, I said I see Cam Newton also as a full blown narcissist, and as Floyd did, I said I can see him achieving greatness in the field. I also said that it depends on how he channels it as far as to whether he will end up being someone more along the lines of Jordan, Ali, or yes even Floyd or someone who will let his narcissism take him down a destructive path such as O.J or other more infamous narcissists.

Finally, for the record I didn't prove your premise that "Newton was not a narcissist in a negative way". This is more spinning on your end. I don't remember that being your premise. Your premise and their premise was that Newton was not a narcissist because you had a limited understanding of narcissism and narcissism meant bad. It doesn't simply mean bad. It was flawed from the get go, because as I am sure you have found out....we are in fact all narcissists in different amounts. But Newton, is imo, a full blown narcissist. And yes he's the type of guy with the "potential" to be characterized as having NPD except for one thing:

It turns out NPD is no longer recognized as a disorder. Interesting, huh? You should look that up!

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PantherFanForLife Newbie

PantherFanForLife

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PFFL randomly creating threads to feed his narcissistic personality.

Continue spouting nonsense and ignorance. I didn't create either of the two threads. The reason the argument spilled over in there is because someone in the media caught on to the same "personality trait" I did. Newton's cockiness when he made the statement "this isn't a HOF league".

Which is what I have been trying to say, he's going to be that kind of dude.

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panthers55 Grand Master

panthers55

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Continue spouting nonsense and ignorance. I didn't create either of the two threads. The reason the argument spilled over in there is because someone in the media caught on to the same "personality trait" I did. Newton's cockiness when he made the statement this isn't a HOF league".

You're right. When you aren't creating threads of your own, you are derailing others. The result is the same.

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PantherFanForLife Newbie

PantherFanForLife

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You're right. When you aren't creating threads of your own, you are derailing others. The result is the same.

I didn't come in to derail a thread. I made a post right in line with what was being discussed. Our argument blown out of proportion, which you yourself participated, is what derailed the thread. Initially it was a guy just making personal attacks, but that's another story.

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PantherFanForLife Newbie

PantherFanForLife

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!. I didn't see any cockiness in his statement but I won't even get into that.

2. I still would like to know what Cam has done to display "self-importance, egotism, vanity, conceit"

I do. It's not just what he says, but how he says it and his body language.

"Tom Brady is good, real good...but he plays in same league as I do."

Now he may have caught himself and backpedaled , but that part is pretty cocky. Also, the tone and air in his voice when he says:

"I'm just a QB in the National Football league".

As for your second point, yI believe you're asking me to prove to you that Cam Newton is a narcissist strictly based on those terms and that definition. I cannot, at least not at this point, being confined to those terms, but again, that is not something I based my initial statement off of. That is also not something psychologists do when looking back on leaders throughout history, or CEOs and categorize them as narcissist. They do not "diagnose" them which is why I repeatedly stayed away from their term.

You can however categorize them by their type(there are many different types of narcissists), actions, interchangeable personality traits, and documented inter-personal relationships, accomplishments or work.

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panthers55 Grand Master

panthers55

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holy poo PantherFanForLife and Panthers55 you guys should publish those post you made on this thread. Didnt know I was getting on the huddle to read a book, hope you girls are getting paid to spend all your time on this site.

Wow really intellectual banter there. Feel free to post again when you actually have something worthwhile to say.:thumbsup:

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