Panthers Scouting Pat White hard

[panthers55]

KT is hurting his race by being so outspoken about how black QBs get the short end of the stick time and time again. Obviously KT is the only black fan or player who feels that way. KT is a racist for saying Warren Moon was viewed more as a WR than a QB in the early 80s simply because he had melanin in his skin. 30 years later, not much is changed and Pat White is viewed pretty much the same. KT is a racist for pointing out the fact that a large chunk of the Panthers fanbase most hated player is a running black QB that regularly beat them. KT is a racist for calling Steve Young a "running" QB. How racist of him, only black QBs should have that label applied to them. KT is a racist for pointing out the conservative branch of this board would've drafted Tim Couch over Don McNabb simply because he's the more "traditional" view of what a QB is, and they would've been wrong just like the Browns.

30 years and a lot of things have changed. We have a black man as president. We have black head coaches, the list goes on and on. Sure there is always more that could be done and will be done but that extends on both sides of the line. Much of what you point out are your own racial biases and opinions not what is said or expressed on this board. And much of what you accuse others is patently false and gross assumptions.

No one for example says you are racist for calling Steve Young a running quarterback. We are saying you are wrong and confused not racist. We are saying that assuming we would pick Eric Crouch over Donovan McNabb because one is white and one is black is racist. Both of them are considered running quarterbacks so I don't see how Crouch would be considered more traditional unless traditional equals white which is again a racist remark with no fact to back it up.

Saying we hate Mick Vick because he is black is racist as well. We hate him because he beat us regularly and played for our most hated divisional rival. I don't see hate on this board for Jamarcus Russell, David Garrard or even Donovan McNabb (unless we are playing them that week). They are black if you didn't notice. You are the one constantly reprising skin factor as a major issue not the rest of the board. People don't like Pat White because he is short and runs too quickly without reading defenses in my opinion. I wouldn't care if he were green or pink, my opinion would be the same.

What makes you racist is that you turn every football discussion into a racial discussion. You assume every criticism about a black quarterback is racially motivated instead of talent or football related. You look for racial motives in everything people say and do and color every discussion that way. My experience is that if you go into every discussion with an agenda looking for something like racism you will find it whether it is there or not. And that is why you are a racist. Something that everyone can easily see. You are apparently the only one that can't see what is plain to everyone else.

[Zod]

I am thinking this is now a tinderbox thread

[King Taharqa]

The Panthers are an organization that prides itself on giving undersized players a chance. Sam Mills. Steve Smith. The Panthers are an organization that has always put more stock into a guy's heart than his "measurables". But when it comes to the sacred position of QB, thats where the line cant be crossed. We cant go against the grain there. All that goes out the window, and we'd rather lose with a strict pocket passer than maybe win with a more versatile QB.

[King Taharqa]

What makes you racist is that you turn every football discussion into a racial discussion. You assume every criticism about a black quarterback is racially motivated instead of talent or football related. You look for racial motives in everything people say and do and color every discussion that way. My experience is that if you go into every discussion with an agenda looking for something like racism you will find it whether it is there or not. And that is why you are a racist. Something that everyone can easily see. You are apparently the only one that can't see what is plain to everyone else.

i dont turn every football discussion into a racial one. But Im one of the few on this board who will speak on race when its pertinent. When it comes to black QBs in the NFL, its very pertinent. Unfortunately for you, Im not the first person to state that fact and not the only one to feel that way. Donovan McNabb is the most successful black QB in the game today, and his sentiment is the same as mine. Let me guess, he's making it all up and its all in his head too right? You guys call me racist when Ive not thrown any slurs around, never tried to put limitations on what a white player could achieve because of my own predetermined ideas about their intelligence and leadership. Something some of you regularly do on and offline when it comes black QBs.

[panthers55]

I have no reason to believe that. Drew Brees couldnt win a playoff game when he had San Diego's D. His playoff record rests at 1-2. His regular season winning percentage rests 4 games above .500. No one will deem Brees' career as unsuccessful at this point though because he's a pretty passer. But he hasnt proven to be a WINNER. Brees is 2-5 as a starter vs. the Panthers, Mike Vick is 6-3. Scot will tell you Brees is the better QB and more dangerous though. LOL.

Michael Vick in the playoffs in 2-2. Brees is 1-2. Seems fairly the same until you scratch belowthe surface. Go look at how they did in those games and that tells you all you need to know. Michael Vick did not play well in any of those games if your standard is throwing the ball for over 200 yards. In 2004 for example they beat St Louis 47-17. Vick was 12-16 for 82 yards. He ran for another 119 yards. He still only accounted for 200 yards but it was clearly not throwing the ball. Brees has never thrown for less than that in any playoff game. That is why he is the better quarterback and why he is a better passer. Everyone would admit Vick is the better running back.

As for the record against the Panthers, how is that relevant to anything other than a reason we Panther fans don't like Atlanta or Vick.

Once again you are spewing convoluted logic and facts while appearing correct on their face value, are irrelevant or only tangential to the discussion.

[Mr. Scot]

Man, you completely don't get it :nonod:

This is what I wrote:

A running quarterback (also referred to as a run first quarterback or a one read and run quarterback) is one that has the athleticism to be an effective runner but who is a mediocre passer at best. Michael Vick is the prime example here, with Vince Young and Eric Crouch also fitting into this description.

This is what you read:

OK, so Vince Young and Michael Vick. 2 QBs who have a knack for leaving the pocket and are not prolific passers are the standard for black QBs.

Running QB does not equal black QB in my mind. Apparently they do in yours. Does that mean Warren Moon, Steve McNair and Byron Leftwich aren't real black quarterbacks?

Was Eric Crouch suddenly revealed to be black recently? If so, I missed it.

Because they cant pass well we shouldnt give Pat White a chance as a QB. And we should be skeptical of any black QB that can move around in the pocket because of those two. I got you. Cuz those are pretty much the only two that fall into your "great runner/lousy passer" category.

Have you read a word I've written about Pat White?

I've repeatedly said my concerns about him are his height and his durability. I think his one year under Bill Stewart has shown that he can be trained to be a passer first, but I don't believe he'll be a guy that has an immediate impact.

Ive given you names of QBs who were mobile and flourished in this league. You pretty much are stuck on your Vick/Young thing and aim to use them as the scapegoat of why a QB with Pat's skills should never be given a chance. And as stated before, combined those two horrible QBs are 7-3 against your favorite football team, have both played in playoff games (with Vick winning a few) and led their teams to winning records. But black QBs cant be considered "successful" until they win a Super Bowl right? Thats the standard of success right?

The Super Bowl is a standard for any QB regardless of color.

And since you seem to have forgotten, a black quarterback has won the Super Bowl (Doug Williams) and another came within a yard of winning it (Steve McNair). Now how is it that I'm the one bringing up that fact and not you? :nonod:

As to the standard of beating he Panthers, Tony Banks beat the Panthers too. Is he a success? Vick's Falcons beat the Panthers early on, but once the Panthers defensive braintrust finally wrapped their minds around the same concepts that Monte Kiffin knew immediately, they pretty much owned him.

So basically Pat White is Mike Vick and Eric Crouch? He cant pass right? You put a premium on strict pocket passing. I put a premium on both the ability to pass and the ability to improvise. Im not surprised you put more value into a Drew Bledsoe/Kerry Collins type of QB than you would a Mike Vick or Randall Cunningham type QB. Its the only style of QB the team you root for has ever employed.

Quoted from within this very thread:

Quarterbacks who can pass and run are gold.

Quarterbacks who can pass but can't run are silver.

Quarterbacks who can run but can't pass are pyrite.

And yet you still don't get it :nonod:

Still stuck in the 1950s. In today's NFL, the ability to improvise is at a premium. How did the game's best passer Peyton Manning do this year in the playoffs? 1st round exit. What about immobile pocket passing Kerry Collins? 1st round exit. Ben Rothlisberger showed that your QB needs to be able to scramble and make things happen with his feet more so than just standing in the pocket all game picking up passing yards. Drew Brees passed for more yards than anybody this season, did he make it into the playoffs? Your ideas are dated Scot. But hey, better to stay conservative and be wrong, then to consider change and risk being right eh? LOL.

Remind me: Who was the other Super Bowl QB?

Roethlisberger can both run and pass effectively. He doesn't always, but he's capable, and did in the Super Bowl, which by the way he won on a good pass.

It's become clear that you either can't interpret what I'm saying or are just choosing to mischaracterize it, because nothing about what you've said about my views bears any resemblance to what was actually written. The quotes above clearly show that. But I guess that's the better option to use if you can't actually back up your argument with facts.

Maybe someday you'll learn to take off the race-colored glasses.

[King Taharqa]

Michael Vick in the playoffs in 2-2. Brees is 1-2. Seems fairly the same until you scratch belowthe surface. Go look at how they did in those games and that tells you all you need to know.Michael Vick did not play well in any of those games if your standard is throwing the ball for over 200 yards. In 2004 for example they beat St Louis 47-17. Vick was 12-16 for 82 yards. He ran for another 119 yards. He still only accounted for 200 yards but it was clearly not throwing the ball. Brees has never thrown for less than that in any playoff game. That is why he is the better quarterback and why he is a better passer. Everyone would admit Vick is the better running back.

Brees must pass the ball because he does not have the ability to go out there and pick up 119 yards on the ground from the QB position. Trust if he did, he would scramble and run more (much like Steve Young). The fact is, outside of 1 season in NO, Brees prolific passing has not translated to much team success. And given the fact his playoff record and winning percentage is below Mike Vick (who is deemed as a failure round these parts) Brees is a failure. You cant have it both ways.

[Samuel L. Jackson]

We're not going to draft Pat White...

/thread

[King Taharqa]

Maybe someday you'll learn to take off the race-colored glasses.

Maybe one day you'll call Donovan McNabb a "quarterback" (who by the way has more passing yards, TDs, and completions than your hero Jake Delhomme) and not just an "athlete". Maybe one day our commitment to unathletic pocket passers will bring us a Super Bowl.

[Samuel L. Jackson]

yeah, because athletic QB's win Super Bowls all the time....

[panthers55]

i dont turn every football discussion into a racial one. But Im one of the few on this board who will speak on race when its pertinent. When it comes to black QBs in the NFL, its very pertinent. Unfortunately for you, Im not the first person to state that fact and not the only one to feel that way. Donovan McNabb is the most successful black QB in the game today, and his sentiment is the same as mine. Let me guess, he's making it all up and its all in his head too right? You guys call me racist when Ive not thrown any slurs around, never tried to put limitations on what a white player could achieve because of my own predetermined ideas about their intelligence and leadership. Something some of you regularly do on and offline when it comes black QBs.

Donovan McNabb has been the brunt of several racist attacks such as the one launched by Rush Limbaugh a few years ago. And I sure that isn't the only one. But his experience is his own and applies to him. Doesn't mean it holds true for all black quarterbacks just as my experience as a white person on this forum doesn't speak for all white folks posting here.

And you miss the point totally about racism. We aren't putting limits on black quarterbacks because they are black we are putting limitations on quarterbacks who can't pass, some of whom happen to be black. Wouldn't matter what color they are. And that is the point. Anyone criticizing David Garrard as a poor passer because he is black?? No! because he can pass not because he is black.

To avoid this going to the tinderbox I will let it go at this. Besides my experience with you is that you won't change your mind or your agenda so I won't waste my time.

[panthers55]

Brees must pass the ball because he does not have the ability to go out there and pick up 119 yards on the ground from the QB position. Trust if he did, he would scramble and run more (much like Steve Young). The fact is, outside of 1 season in NO, Brees prolific passing has not translated to much team success. And given the fact his playoff record and winning percentage is below Mike Vick (who is deemed as a failure round these parts) Brees is a failure. You cant have it both ways.

Tell that to the New Orleans folks. They will have lots of arguments to the contrary. At least this smacks of football which is a better topic than where this has been headed for the past several pages.

[King Taharqa]

yeah, because athletic QB's win Super Bowls all the time....

Ben Rothlisberger is not athletic? Steve Young.

[Mr. Scot]

Maybe one day you'll call Donovan McNabb a "quarterback" (who by the way has more passing yards, TDs, and completions than your hero Jake Delhomme) and not just an "athlete". Maybe one day our commitment to unathletic pocket passers will bring us a Super Bowl.

Let's try this again.

Quarterbacks who can pass and run are gold.

Quarterbacks who can pass but can't run are silver.

Quarterbacks who can run but can't pass are pyrite.

I'd challenge you to explain to me how that equates to elevating unathletic quarterbacks above all others, but we both know you can't. My guess is that you'll choose instead to misquote me again rather than actually debate on facts.

On the McNabb issue, again you're missing it, so I'll ask you the question I asked before that you never answered.

At varying times, I have referred to Donovan McNabb, Jeff Garcia, Matt Hasselbeck and Brad Johnson - among others - as overrated. What do all these quarterbacks have in common? (again, it ain't race)

While I'm at it, here's another question for you. There was an NFL player who once referred to Donovan McNabb as a "runningback who passes". Without googling, do you know who he was and what race he is?