Panthers Scouting Pat White hard

[KillerKat]

So why is it immediately assumed every black QB that can scramble and run, cant pass?

First of all, stop making it a black issue. Second, It's a RUN FIRST issue. A QB that is run first doesn't have much success in the NFL. You already have a RB, you dont need another behind center. Yeah running is a good quality to have for a QB, but you need a QB that can read defense's. You need a QB that when the pressure comes, he stays in the pocket and finds an open receiver instead of reacting on his first instinct and fleeing. QBs that can run as well as throw the ball good are far and few between. There aren't that many QBs that are as talented as Cunningham and Young were.

[King Taharqa]

Yeah running is a good quality to have for a QB, but you need a QB that can read defense's. You need a QB that when the pressure comes, he stays in the pocket and finds an open receiver instead of reacting on his first instinct and fleeing. QBs that can run as well as throw the ball good are far and few between. There aren't that many QBs that are as talented as Cunningham and Young were.

There arent that many as talented as Marino or Peyton, but that doesnt stop teams from drafting the Tim Couches, Joey Harringtons, and Alex Smiths of the world now does it? Speaking of Couch, going by the 1950s prehistoric QB logic so many in this Panther fanbase seem to grasp too, Tim Couch should've been a better NFL QB than Donovan McNabb who was drafted after him. Couch is 6'4 230 lb pocket passer. He was fiery, had a cannon arm and had all the measurables and qualities so many believe the prototype QB is. Then you had the smaller Donovan McNabb who was a scrambler that people questioned as a QB and passer coming into the draft. Couch is one of the all time BUSTS. Donovan McNabb is a franchise QB with 10 years under his belt.

Black QBs are judged by a different standard. Its common knowledge. If the guy has heart & ability, then people question his measurables (Donovan McNabb, Pat White). If he has the measurables, then people question his intelligence and heart (Russell, Brooks, Young). In both cases, if they have athletic ability to run the ball its automatically assumed they cant produce in the passing game. They also dont hang around in the league as long.

[Cyberjag]

Are you sure you're not Rush Limbaugh? That's pretty much what he got fired from ESPN for saying.

Honestly, at this point I don't think anyone really cares if the QB or any position is black or white, so long as he can play. The people like you that do care are pretty marginalized, and aren't the decision makers. Your insistence that it has something to do with skin color just makes you sound like a dumbass.

Run-first QBs rarely make it in the NFL, regardless of skin color. They may be able to dominate a college game, but once they hit the speed of an NFL defense their game is over.

[panthers55]

So why is it immediately assumed every black QB that can scramble and run, cant pass?

If anyone assumed that it was you. I pointed out 2 black quarterbacks drafted from my alma mater who were very good passers and subsequently drafted into the NFL. But if you look at guys like Vince Young and Michael Vick and in my opinion Pat White in the games I saw him play over the past 2 years, because they can run it can become a detriment to them transitioning to the pro game rather than an advantage. They look for one read maybe 2 and instead of staying in the pocket waiting until someone clears, they immediately take off running. Often times the offense develops too many option looks or roll out plays which again can hurt a quarterbacks development in a passing offense.

It isn't that they can't develop those passing skills and improve their ability to read defenses and pick third and fourth reads but it gives teams reasons to question their development. And with teams spending 10s of millions on a pro prospect, they have to be sure.

Lastly if you think this discussion only applies to black quarterbacks then you have missed the discussion about The Golden Calf of Bristol who has been criticized for lack of a passing game and ability to read defenses because he runs too often as well.

[rayzor]

my popcorn is stale.

someone get me another bag

[Zod]

Ever notice how the Panthers never draft anyone they "scout hard"

[King Taharqa]

Ever notice how the Panthers never draft anyone they "scout hard"

Yup.

[King Taharqa]

Run-first QBs rarely make it in the NFL, regardless of skin color. They may be able to dominate a college game, but once they hit the speed of an NFL defense their game is over.

Ever heard of Donovan McNabb? He played in a option offense at Syracuse. He came into the league at 6'2 210 lbs. How's he doing? Oh thats right, "run first" QBs rarely make it. Jeff Garcia, another scrambler who's a 4 time pro bowler who's enjoyed a LONG career in the NFL. How can that be, "running" QBs rarely make it. Steve Young rushed for 43 TDs and over 4,000 yards. He won an MVP award, a Super Bowl, and is in the Hall Of Fame. But "running" QBs rarely make it. The Norm Van Brocklin 1950s approach to QBing is a joke. And it hasnt put no trophies in our trophy case.

By the way for anyone keeping score...

2 black "run first QBs" vs. the Panthers

Michael Vick 6-3

Vince Young 1-0

On this board, Young and Vick are HORRIBLE QBs. Yet combined they beat the Panthers 70% of the time. LOL.

[Mr. Scot]

Black QBs are judged by a different standard. Its common knowledge. If the guy has heart & ability, then people question his measurables (Donovan McNabb, Pat White). If he has the measurables, then people question his intelligence and heart (Russell, Brooks, Young). In both cases, if they have athletic ability to run the ball its automatically assumed they cant produce in the passing game. They also dont hang around in the league as long.

:icon_bs:

The notion that it's common knowledge is complete bull. It's only "common knowledge" to people who filter everything through a racial filter. I'd add that it's not "assumed" that run-first QBs can't pass. It's observed on the field.

Ever heard of Donovan McNabb? He played in a option offense at Syracuse. He came into the league at 6'2 210 lbs. How's he doing? Oh thats right, "run first" QBs rarely make it. Jeff Garcia, another scrambler who's a 4 time pro bowler who's enjoyed a LONG career in the NFL. How can that be, "running" QBs rarely make it. Steve Young rushed for 43 TDs and over 4,000 yards. He won an MVP award, a Super Bowl, and is in the Hall Of Fame. But "running" QBs rarely make it. The Norm Van Brocklin 1950s approach to QBing is a joke. And it hasnt put no trophies in our trophy case.

I've explained a fairly simple point a thousand times, and yet you still don't seem to get it. Not every QB who can run is a "run-first" QB :nonod:

Citing McNabb, Garcia and Steve Young as examples of "run-first" QBs pretty much tells me you have no idea how to tell the difference between a "mobile" QB and a "one read and run" QB.

If you don't get it at this point, I'm not sure you ever will.

[King Taharqa]

Steve Young baby. If there were a black QB who played with Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens and had more rushing TDs than Randall, and more rushing attempts and yards than Michael Vick, no one would hesitate to call him a "run first" QB. The guy was a gutsy player who put up 4200 rushing yards man. Look at any bio on Steve and it'll detail how he was always a dominant scrambler even going back to his high school days. He was also a very efficient passer, but his mobility is a big part of what made him great.

Ive given you names of QBs who've been successful as scramblers and improvising in the passing game. Ive also given you names of less mobile pocket passers who came in with alot of hype and fizzled in this league. We can sit here all day. Tim Couch, David Carr, Alex Smith, Kyle Boller, Matt Leinart. All 1st round QBs who havent quite made a splash on this league. Carson Palmer is a former #1 overall draft pick and the highest paid QB in the league. Never won a playoff game and his winning percentage rests barely above .500. Hell even Jay Cutler is a 1st round QB with a losing percentage as a starter and has very questionable leadership ability. That aint stopping alot of our fans from salivating over him. Pocket passers who lack the metal to improvise in and out of the pocket are having a hard time producing in today's NFL.

With a player like Pat White it gives you the best of both worlds because he has the ability to scramble and pick up yards and 1st downs. But he also gives you that player that can make the throws to sustain a drive or find one of our studs downfield. He's also gonna make your running game alot better too. His ability to lead and bond with his teammates is also SEVERELY underrated. People are afraid that a Pat White CAN be successful and make that 1950s QB philosophy yall typing look like the joke that it is.

[carpanfan96]

Lets go steve young vs Mike Vick first 5 years starting. (keep in mind that at the point Young started a full season of games for SF he was already a 7 year vet.

His first two years were with the Bucs

They look like this, record of 3-16

267 - 501 / 53% / 3217 / 11 td/ 21 int/ qb rating 60

114 rushes - 658 yrds - 6 td - 7 attempts per game in 19 games started

Between 87 and 92 he started a total of 20 Games and played in another 46 games

The only years he didn't miss a game are the years of 92 - 94. In 104 games he played between 92 - 99 he averaged 60 rushing attempts per game.

He had 2507 yards rushing on 436 rushes during those years.

Ok now onto the comparison We'll use the years of 92 - 97 when he was the ages of 30 - 36.

During those years he started 86 games. He had 355 Rushes for 1996 rushing yards and 23 rushing td's. record of 66 - 22. 2723 attempts - 1840 completions for 20,096 yards / 142 td's / 68 ints / qb rating 97 / Completion percentage 66 %

Vick missed 29 games and started 51 during his 5 year stint with the Falcons

He had a record of 38 - 28 - 1 during those years.

930 Com / 1730 att / 54 % / 11505 yrds / 71 td / 52 int / 75.7 rating

529 att / 3859 yards / 21 td's

It's not what I compared but If you compare there early careers. They ran at about the same rate and were about the same in accuracy. It took Young a long time to get pass 1,2,3,4 reads then run as a last option. There's no way for us to really know if vick would have picked that up or not.

[monstercat]

Ever notice how the Panthers never draft anyone they "scout hard"

100's of players, only about 6 possible draft picks (at least for now)...do the math.

[carolinarolls]

Ever heard of Donovan McNabb? He played in a option offense at Syracuse. He came into the league at 6'2 210 lbs. How's he doing? Oh thats right, "run first" QBs rarely make it. Jeff Garcia, another scrambler who's a 4 time pro bowler who's enjoyed a LONG career in the NFL. How can that be, "running" QBs rarely make it. Steve Young rushed for 43 TDs and over 4,000 yards. He won an MVP award, a Super Bowl, and is in the Hall Of Fame. But "running" QBs rarely make it. The Norm Van Brocklin 1950s approach to QBing is a joke. And it hasnt put no trophies in our trophy case.

By the way for anyone keeping score...

2 black "run first QBs" vs. the Panthers

Michael Vick 6-3

Vince Young 1-0

On this board, Young and Vick are HORRIBLE QBs. Yet combined they beat the Panthers 70% of the time. LOL.

well throughout the course of history "beating the Panthers" can't really be considered all that great of an accomplishment IMO.

[monstercat]

well throughout the course of history "beating the Panthers" can't really be considered all that great of an accomplishment IMO.

Cutler couldn't do it.