What does Cam have to do

[rico6]

Holy poo at the wall of text from this guy.

[Marguide]

Now, my stance since January is that Cam Newton's abilities most closely resemble Vince Young, especially comparing their final season. Of course, many here cringe at that, since Vince has been a huge disappointment. However, he is the closest to the parameters you have asked for:

1. Threw for 3000 yards; ran for 1000. Threw 25 pass att/G

2. 1.58 Pass/Run ratio career; 2.09 SR year.

3. Threw for 26 TDs, ran for 12

4. #3 pick overall.

5. Measurables (6'5; 235 lbs)

Another late night for us both?

Ok, even though this was directed at Teeray, I will give you my thoughts on it.

Vince Young talents may, in fact, most resemble the skill set of Cam Newton. That is where the comparison stops though, as they are completely different individuals. Cam is a hard worker, Vince not so much. Vince is a head case, Cam is not. Vince always held himself above his teammates, Cam does not.

So while the raw material may be similar, the results are likely to be far different because they are far different people.

How many QB's had the same level of skill coming out of college ball as Tom Brady? It is what he did once he got into the league to make himself better that set him apart.

I do not find this argument any more compelling than the ones you put forward last night (with all due respect).

[Ivan The Awesome]

for you to consider him a success this year? Stats, Wins, whatever else you want to throw in there.

Thanks

I criticize him a lot. Like when he throws into double coverage, throws of his back foot, his accuracy Issues with balls being thrown under 15 yards. But I also give him praise when it's due. His off season work, his work Ethic, his undeniable swagger. That pretty Deep ball, he can throw with his Canon of an Arm. That poster child Smile that can light up a room.

My consideration of a "successful" year for Cam would be a long time lines of this.

Stats: +(Over) -(Under)

Games | Completions | Atts | Comp% | Yards | Avg |TD's | INT's | FUM | RAT

12 to 16 | 250 to 400 | 400+ | 50%+ | 1,500+ | 4+ | 10+ | 10- | 5- | 55%+

I'm not asking him for a super bowl, not this year at least, but I'd like him to show he can play. Show he can become a POCKET passer first, then a runner. If he's around these numbers this season, I won't worry about poo for the rest of the seasons to come. Because he can improve with age and experience.

As far as wins, I don't mind losing close games. But if we get shut out or he throws an insane amount of INT's consistently, then that won't fly. TD/INT ratio, as long as the INT's don't overlap the TD's by 10, for example 4TDs-15INTs. If he can win 5 games. That's a success.

The way he will handle himself after a bad loss, how he will handle himself outside the football field. Overcome all the hype eventually. How he will take pressure situations. I will take all that into consideration.

Regardless, I won't be hard on the guy on his Rookie season. I'd give him 3 years, if after that he continues to be garbage, well, yeah.

[mav1234]

problem with stats is you miss things like personality, work ethic, etc... so far it doesn't seem likely that cam will be the same headcase that vy was. doesn't mean he will 'succeed' where vince 'failed' though. no guarantees there... just pointing out one flaw with the comparison.

vy also didn't "fail" in this league if you could call it that because of his play on the field... it was the 'extra' stuff.

[KJDaniel31]

Another late night for us both?

Ok, even though this was directed at Teeray, I will give you my thoughts on it.

Vince Young talents may, in fact, most resemble the skill set of Cam Newton. That is where the comparison stops though, as they are completely different individuals. Cam is a hard worker, Vince not so much. Vince is a head case, Cam is not. Vince always held himself above his teammates, Cam does not.

So while the raw material may be similar, the results are likely to be far different because they are far different people.

How many QB's had the same level of skill coming out of college ball as Tom Brady? It is what he did once he got into the league to make himself better that set him apart.

I do not find this argument any more compelling than the ones you put forward last night (with all due respect).

I can't disagree with this at all. Work ethic/personality/desire to win are part of the equation for successful NFL players. It is obvious that Vince was severely lacking in this area. You have faith that Cam is different, but I think you will admit that he has some major red flags in his past. Where we disagree is how significant those are.

Also, you can't forget, money does crazy things to people. Some are still driven, and some completely quite trying. This may be the most difficult aspect to predict when it comes to NFL prospects. I think we all hope that Cam is among the The Golden Calf of Bristol/Garrard crowd rather than the Leaf/VY crowd.

[teeray]

Did you really think that was it? Here, Steve McNair....I WIN! Did you really think I was claiming that no QB who rushed for half the yards Cam did has ever been decent in the NFL? Sure they have, so what was different about them that made them more successful? They all threw EXPONENTIALLY more than Cam did in college.

:lol: I don't know you tell me. Oh wait you already did

Originally Posted by KJDaniel31

Cam ran for 1,473 yards in his one year at Auburn. Can you name me the most successful QB who ran for even half of that on average in college?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl:

Let me try to say this in a different way since you don't seem to understand what I am saying.

You keep trying to define Cam Newton by his college stats and how they compare to other college QBs and their college stats and how those QBs fared in the NFL. I do think that is a good reference point.

However, here is the issue I have. You can sit there and write walls of text about how this guy has similar stats to all these other guys and therefore that somehow translates to the NFL.

I on the other hand judge each QB on his unique skill set and only use stats as a reference point, not an indicator of pass or fail in the NFL because that would be foolish.

For Vince Young or The Golden Calf of Bristol there are really, really big differences in those guys and Cam Newton.

Vince Young. Smaller size (not height but sheer size), mental issues, throws side arm, weaker arm

The Golden Calf of Bristol- Slower, long delivery, lacks arm strength

For every guy you roll out there that is statistically similar I can point to something that shows a glaring differences between that person and Cam Newton that show why Cam is a different prospect than those guys. I am not saying that he is going to be the GOAT. Or even better than some of those guys in the end (although it is my belief that he will). But there are huge differences in skill set between Vince Young, The Golden Calf of Bristol, and Cam Newton.

If you only judge people on certain stats then you are severely missing the point.

You can use stats to say "He is just like these other guys"

And then I would respond with physical attributes and say "He is nothing like those other guys."

And that is where we are I think. I am looking at his physical abilities and forming and opinion of Cam and you are looking at stats and forming your opinion.

[footballisasport]

I criticize him a lot. Like when he throws into double coverage, throws of his back foot, his accuracy Issues with balls being thrown under 15 yards. But I also give him praise when it's due. His off season work, his work Ethic, his undeniable swagger. That pretty Deep ball, he can throw with his Canon of an Arm. That poster child Smile that can light up a room.

My consideration of a "successful" year for Cam would be a long time lines of this.

Stats: +(Over) -(Under)

Games | Completions | Atts | Comp% | Yards | Avg |TD's | INT's | FUM | RAT

12 to 16 | 250 to 400 | 400+ | 50%+ | 1,500+ | 4+ | 10+ | 10- | 5- | 55%+

I'm not asking him for a super bowl, not this year at least, but I'd like him to show he can play. Show he can become a POCKET passer first, then a runner. If he's around these numbers this season, I won't worry about poo for the rest of the seasons to come. Because he can improve with age and experience.

As far as wins, I don't mind losing close games. But if we get shut out or he throws an insane amount of INT's consistently, then that won't fly. TD/INT ratio, as long as the INT's don't overlap the TD's by 10, for example 4TDs-15INTs. If he can win 5 games. That's a success.

The way he will handle himself after a bad loss, how he will handle himself outside the football field. Overcome all the hype eventually. How he will take pressure situations. I will take all that into consideration.

Regardless, I won't be hard on the guy on his Rookie season. I'd give him 3 years, if after that he continues to be garbage, well, yeah.

It's funny how no one is demanding any of that from any of the other QBs drafted this year but Cam. I'm amazed how much is demanded of this kid while the other QBs just have to deliver "good enough."

I guess there lies the difference between preception vs. reality.

[the212]

this, with consistency:

http://the212daily.com/2011/08/25/xo-example-of-newtons-upside/

[King Taharqa]

LOL@VY being a "failure". Where do people get this stuff? And a $100 bucks says dude thinks some scrub QB who aint won 10 NFL games is a success.

[King Taharqa]

It's funny how no one is demanding any of that from any of the other QBs drafted this year but Cam. I'm amazed how much is demanded of this kid while the other QBs just have to deliver "good enough."

Just take it as a sign as he's better than those guys and always will be. People expect more of him because he's flat out better in every way. If those guys were as good as some want them to be, they would have the highest expectations and not the other way around. The lopsided expectations is why a lot of QBs suck in this league. They're coddled and given a pass for their failures because they're "safe". If there was more accountability and less politic, I promise you the QB position in the NFL would be in better shape than it is. Instead you got 3-4 guys who excel at an elite level and a bunch of "pretenders" that people try to act like are as good or could be as good as those guys when they really aint. At my job, the people who work under me and suck, I have less expectations and demands for, its human nature. Take it as a compliment and a sign of Cam being 'absolute' to his critics. They wont to prove he's not, while the other guys arent even considered that.

[mav1234]

It's funny how no one is demanding any of that from any of the other QBs drafted this year but Cam. I'm amazed how much is demanded of this kid while the other QBs just have to deliver "good enough."

I guess there lies the difference between preception vs. reality.

just a question, how many team's forums do you actually read? For the amount you comment on what fans here aren't saying about other teams, it must be quite a few.

because I have read that said about one rookie already (Locker) and heard it during Kaepernick's preseason game. It has probably been said about others, though it's more likely people are focusing on other issues that they have.

[GritsRgreat]

Vince Young was a huge failure and a joke of an NFL quaterback. Hell, his own home team (Houston) didn't want anything to do with him...Better hope Cam doesn't follow in the same footsteps..

[CRA]

Vince Young was a huge failure and a joke of an NFL quaterback. Hell, his own home team (Houston) didn't want anything to do with him...Better hope Cam doesn't follow in the same footsteps..

VY was one of the greatest college QBs in recent history.

Vince Young is 30-17 as a NFL starter.

Only thing holding him back is he is a mental case.....talent is/was there. Nothing to suggest Cam will have the mental/emotional problems Young has had.....

[teeray]

One last thing KJ. In order for your hypothesis of pass ratio is equivalent to how developed a passer is wouldn't the same have to be true in reciprocal??

In other words would someone who has a pass/run ratio of 8:1 be a better developed passer than someone with a 4:1 pass/run ratio?

Would it be your argument that Graham Harrell is a better developed passer than Andrew Luck??

I mean obviously the reason he passed more in college is because he is a better developed passer right?? How come Graham Harrell wasn't drafted despite his huge passing stats and his great pass/run ratio??

The truth is a pass/run ratio generally is a reflection of the style of offense in which you play in and not a reflection of the skill set in which you possess.

It simply doesn't work.

If your argument is that he didn't pass the ball enough to properly develop as a passer the more significant stats would be attempts per game and not pass/run ratio IMO