What does Cam have to do

[teeray]

You brought up quality wins, not me

You think a 10-6 team is worse than the two 4-12 teams?? Okay my bad that division was WAY better than our current division :rofl:

[Makish]

isn't every win a quality win

[teeray]

Last year we had 3 good records, i dont expect 3 teams will have 10 plus wins this season. i think we are somewhat overplaying this whole top division thing, not that it has anything to do with this thread. We do have 3 quality QB's, but there are severe question marks for each of those teams defenses.

Maybe not but at the same time I think it is also silly to dismiss a conference that has at least 3 teams that are more than capable of making the playoffs and having 10 win seasons.

[TheRealDeal]

But you can make the argument that the Bucs weren't a good team at all last year and got very lucky with scheduling.

You can't say a team is good when they don't beat a team with a .501 winning percentage or better.

[mav1234]

defensively I would have thought the AFC East and AFC North were better than the NFC South is now, but that's not based on any rankings, just how it seemed.

[CardiacCats]

I think just steadily improve, we want to see him progress, not regress. If he throws for 2,000+ yards with around 12 TDs and about 15 INTs, I'll be happy. And of course he'll run for 600-800 yards. I just want to see him improve.

[Raleighcat83]

We are 2-14 and the Bucs didn't beat a team with a winning record...

We don't count against our own strength of schedule.:rolleyes:

[Mvp2014]

Oroy

[MrCatWalker]

Right now as far as the stats go during the preseason Cam is ranked 4th out of 7 rookie quarterbacks that had some decent playing time with Greg McElroy ranked 1st. who????????? a 7th rounder for the Jets. lol

[poarch0]

more points, yards

less int, DUH moments

THAN jimmy....

[stormofdantess]

He needs to sit and learn how to play football at a professional level.

[weymouthst]

THAN jimmy....

THAN Anderson...

Not expecting huge numbers. Minor improvements here and there. Realistic guess: 170 1TD - 2INT? 3 quarters? That would be awesome. Don't forget, it's preseason.

[KJDaniel31]

:lol: Sorry if you think that is a trick question. And I have answered every question you have asked me I believe. Maybe not the way you wanted me to but I have answered them. And what leads you to believe I haven't been honest.

It's quite simple....you are arguing things you know for a fact arent true. I have not once changed my stance nor my argument. You finally answered ONE QUESTION (after avoiding it like the plague) which finally allowed us to discuss your stance in depth. You have accused me of making things too simple, but how is the above misrepresentation of what I have said any different?

I say no QB who runs as much as Cam did in college has ever been successful. In order to get you to pick the most similar QB to Cam who you believe to be successful for discussion sake, I have to dumb it down to simply "half as many rushing yards". FINALLY you bite, and pick someone.

Did you really think that was it? Here, Steve McNair....I WIN! Did you really think I was claiming that no QB who rushed for half the yards Cam did has ever been decent in the NFL? Sure they have, so what was different about them that made them more successful? They all threw EXPONENTIALLY more than Cam did in college.

My stance all along is much more complex than what you are pretending. Even though Steve ran for nearly 1000 yards, it is obvious that he was developing his passing skills (by throwing the ball) at a MUCH higher rate than Cam did, nearly 4-1.

To label this "backtracking" or "changing my stance" cannot be label anything other than dishonest. Why is there a need for it? Why not just continue the discussion, and explain why you disagree? For someone who seems this smart, your tactics confuse me.

And as far as your last question I will answer like I have all night. Why does it matter if it is irrelevant?? In 2008 there had never been a black President does that mean there is no way Barack Obama wins?? :lol:

Is your point that there is a first time for everything? Good, I agree. Cam may very well be the first of his type of QB to succeed. I have no problem with this stance of yours, it is honest and reasonable. I simply dont see how such a longshot deserves to be #1 in the draft.

As far as dealing in realism and fact. Are you saying it is a fact that Cam Newton is the same person as The Golden Calf of Bristol?? Same QB as The Golden Calf of Bristol?? Has same mechanics as The Golden Calf of Bristol?? Same skill set as The Golden Calf of Bristol??

I mean if you boil it down that is what you are saying. Your argument to this point (after it changing at least three separate times after massive fails :lol:) is "The Golden Calf of Bristol ran the ball almost equal to the times he ran the ball in college. Cam Newton ran the ball near equal number times a game. The Golden Calf of Bristol is struggling as an NFL QB. Therefore Cam Newton will struggle as an NFl QB" :rofl:

More dishonesty....where have I said that Cam and Tim are the same person, or same abilities, or anything resembling this? I'd love to see this quote.

Again, you willfully leave out vast parts of my argument in the dishonest attempt to simplify it. I have argued that the run/pass ratio is a sign of one or more of the following:

1. Lacks passing skills

2. Lacks coverage understanding

3. Excels at running

4. A run heavy play calling system

All lead to a lack of development of passing skills. Many QBs had promising passing skills before college, but due to their systems, these skills were severely held back. Case in point is Stephen McGee.

Mcgee was the 4th rated pocket passer in the 2004 class by rivals.com (not even listed as a dual threat QB). He graduated in the top 10 in passing yards in the history of Texas high school football, as well as 3A all time leader in Tds and did not throw a single INT as a senior. He committed to Texas A&M, which is my favorite team, and I was ecstatic that we may finally drop the option offense. His gutsy play quickly made him my favorite college player ever, and I hoped we would develop a system around his skills. We didn't until late in his career, while he was constantly hurt, and though Stephen was an athlete, he should have been developing his passing skills rather than getting beaten up every week running the option. His career as a QB was severely damaged, and now most people simply think he has always been a runner. He has all the skills of an NFL pocket passer, but they have not been developed much at all. I hold out hope for him, but the odds are so low.

It is ridiculous on its face KJ. Can you only work in simple formulas? Does it even matter that he did throw the ball 20 times a game and had nearly 3,000 yards passing and 30 tds?? Or is this broad brush ONLY covered by this ratio??

Perhaps if you would just accurately discuss my position, we could intelligently discuss yours? Honesty will go a long way here.

I will finish up with this. If you think Cam is going to suck that is fine. But base it on something a little better than this. This is too weak. Say he has accuracy issues. That he has short hopped some throws in the preseason. Something like that.

Because saying a guy is going to fail bc he had too many designed runs called for him in college is really too simple minded to take seriously.

I do believe he will fail, and for the reasons you listed. I have never said anything other than this. These faults are the RESULT of his lack of development as a passer, due to the high % of runs vs pass in major college football. You simply cannot become a better passer without throwing the ball.

Now, my stance since January is that Cam Newton's abilities most closely resemble Vince Young, especially comparing their final season. Of course, many here cringe at that, since Vince has been a huge disappointment. However, he is the closest to the parameters you have asked for:

1. Threw for 3000 yards; ran for 1000. Threw 25 pass att/G

2. 1.58 Pass/Run ratio career; 2.09 SR year.

3. Threw for 26 TDs, ran for 12

4. #3 pick overall.

5. Measurables (6'5; 235 lbs)

Now, if Vince threw a higher % of the time than Cam did, had comparable stats/success at the end of the year, how much should we be worried about Cam's development as a passer? Should we consider that Vince also had much more talent at RB, which kept his rushing stats much lower than perhaps they would have been had he had Cam's RBs?

Do you disagree that Vince's statistics most closely mirror Cam's? Would you agree that his talents/abilities are the closest as well?

(Since you struggle with this, CLOSELY does not equal SAME).

[KJDaniel31]

But you can make the argument that the Bucs weren't a good team at all last year and got very lucky with scheduling.

You can't say a team is good when they don't beat a team with a .501 winning percentage or better.

I would say that TB was a average team last year. I was happy when they missed the playoffs, because it was obvious that they really did get lucky with scheduling. A decent team should be ONE other decent team give multiple tries.

However, given the ATL/NO records, TB will still get a 3rd place schedule this year, and may have a better record than their talent would suggest this year as well.

All in all, our division is real tough. It's gonna be real hard for us to win more than 2 games in division IMO.