What does Cam have to do

[KJDaniel31]

History says that a QB with a 1:1 ratio can never succeed right? I mean that has been your argument. If your answer is no then it craters you entire position.

So I guess by answering no you would also agree that every QB needs to be evaluated on his own merits and skill set not a pass/run ratio, correct?

So therefore you also admit that you can not say that Cam Newton is going to be a bust because of a run/pass ratio, correct?

You don't have to answer those questions bc you already have by saying no to the previous question.

It doesn't matter if he has ever existed because the hypothetical goes to the core of your 1:1 argument and whether is even matters.

Thanks for playing ;)

I see you ignored the rest of the post. I anticipated that.

Is it not clear from the rest of the post that my "NO" is based on the fact that such a "unicorn" has never existed? You made him up....of course the answer is no.

Again...you have to resort to fantasy land to try and make a point. I am arguing from simple and easily verifiable facts. Sure, I am honest and admit "No, if there is a fantasy QB who descends from heaven and is perfect, but has a 1:1 ratio, then yes I would take him" is evidence of only the fact that you MUST resort to fantasies in order to defend your stance.

Why isn't there anyone real who defends your stance?

[mav1234]

Are you expecting Cam to have a 1:1 ratio in the pros? Or anything resembling that?

[KJDaniel31]

I'd never use JC stats for anything except to point out that a run/pass breakdown isn't really indicative of a player's skill set, but more a consequence of the situation he is in. All I was trying to demonstrate here is that a player changes based on the situation they are in. Certainly his athleticism is part of what he brings to the game. At Auburn, that translated to a major part of the offense, but that doesn't mean it would have to elsewhere.

Are you telling me that you really think that if you put Jake Locker at Auburn, he wouldn't have had a different run/pass breakdown? Locker is also quite athletic and he would have been fun to watch there, too. Not like Cam, but...

Since I doubt the Panthers plan to run him 20 times a game, they either thought he could be molded into a pass first QB or that he already was one. Ultimately Cam was drafted not for what he did in college, but for what he could do in the NFL. IMO, it's the hope of Cam continuing to work hard to get better at his trade that drove the Panthers to draft him. It's not just that he is a physical freak - the last two schools he has been with have been very positive about his work ethic and his drive to improve himself.

My thing is I prefer to look at each situation individually. At this point, I have reservations about him, but I hope he'll turn out alright because he is a Panther... and I think any attempt at predicting his success rate based on past success of guys like Ben or failures of guys like Pat White is just too simple.

Now we may be getting somewhere. Do you feel like a QB who plays in system in which he runs at a rate near what Cam did has had his NFL growth/potential stunted? Would this negatively affect his chances of developing into a NFL winning QB?

[KJDaniel31]

Are you expecting Cam to have a 1:1 ratio in the pros? Or anything resembling that?

No...no where close to that.

I feel only that history proves that QB's who run that much never becoming winning QBs in the NFL.

Sometimes, it is because they simply arent good passers. Sometimes, they are just incredible athletes and have too much success running. Sometimes, it is because their system calls for it. Sometimes, their competition forces it. Often, it is a combination of many/all of these.

History says they all lead to one thing: lack of development of NFL level passing skills.

[teeray]

I see you ignored the rest of the post. I anticipated that.

Is it not clear from the rest of the post that my "NO" is based on the fact that such a "unicorn" has never existed? You made him up....of course the answer is no.

Again...you have to resort to fantasy land to try and make a point. I am arguing from simple and easily verifiable facts. Sure, I am honest and admit "No, if there is a fantasy QB who descends from heaven and is perfect, but has a 1:1 ratio, then yes I would take him" is evidence of only the fact that you MUST resort to fantasies in order to defend your stance.

Why isn't there anyone real who defends your stance?

:lol: I didn't ignore the rest of you post. There was nothing else there when I quoted it besides the unicorn sentence which I addressed in my other post.

It is a hypothetical question. Not sure if you know this but they are often used to make a point and are often times exaggerated to expose the basic flaws in one's logic.

The point you have whiffed on is that this ratio (that you so desperately want someone to look up) is irrelevant as I have stated from the beginning. You just said that if a QB has a particular skill set that leads you to believe he can be successful you would draft him regardless of what his pass/run ratio was. So would the Panthers or any other franchise.

I realize he is just a unicorn, but since you said you wouldn't pass on the unicorn may I ask why this precedent wouldn't apply to this unicorn??

In regards to you somehow thinking that me not looking up a QB with 1:1 ratio is somehow your ace card, I will say why would I take the time to look that up when you and I have come to an agreement that it isn't relevant.

[mav1234]

Now we may be getting somewhere. Do you feel like a QB who plays in system in which he runs at a rate near what Cam did has had his NFL growth/potential stunted? Would this negatively affect his chances of developing into a NFL winning QB?

Any spread offense may 'stunt' the growth of a college player compared to a so called 'pro' system, but the difference between the NFL game and the college game is such that even "pro ready" QBs have quite a bit of adjustment. Reads, snaps from under center, the way plays are called, ... it all adds up to being quite difficult. And of course, not all spreads are created equal.

I don't think that if Cam had gone to say... Ohio State for a year... he would necessarily have had a much better chance of developing into a winning NFL quarterback. It may have helped in the short term, but in the long term, his success is much more complicated than that. I tend to think that the offense a player comes from can modify the learning curve, but to me, it's just as important what situation that player is coming into and of course the player themselves as to if they will be successful.

I do not think running in and of itself stunts the development of a prospect. When he was coming out, one of my major concerns with Cam was how little he'd thrown the ball over the course of his college career compared to some other quarterbacks. I felt like he was missing valuable reps. I still think he did. But, ultimately, we hired Shula for a very specific reason, and I'm going to hope he can bring our young guys up to speed quick.

edit: and with that I'm going to bed. goodnight, gentleman. play nice :p

[KJDaniel31]

:lol: I didn't ignore the rest of you post. There was nothing else there when I quoted it besides the unicorn sentence which I addressed in my other post.

It is a hypothetical question. Not sure if you know this but they are often used to make a point and are often times exaggerated to expose the basic flaws in one's logic.

The point you have whiffed on is that this ratio (that you so desperately want someone to look up) is irrelevant as I have stated from the beginning. You just said that if a QB has a particular skill set that leads you to believe he can be successful you would draft him regardless of what his pass/run ratio was. So would the Panthers or any other franchise.

B/c I was under the impression we were having a realistic discussion. Anyone can invent a wild hypothetical which resembles no player who ever existed to make a point. What does it prove...other than unlike you I will honestly answer a direct question? Its no different than if I ask you if you stopped beating your wife. Say yes, and I assume you at one time beat her/say no, and I assume you still do. Load the question up enough and you can save face with several who dont really develop their own opinions...but isnt it more fun just to tell, then discuss, the truth? Yes...if some mythical beast appears, I will have to change my stance. How many teams have argued that their unicorn (Vince, The Golden Calf of Bristol, Pat White, Tarvaris Jackson, Vick) was THE unicorn? How many times does this have to be wrong before we learn from their mistakes?

I realize he is just a unicorn, but since you said you wouldn't pass on the unicorn may I ask why this precedent wouldn't apply to this unicorn??

How could I pass on him? His name is likely Jesus....it would be pretty obvious that he should be followed.

Fact is you (again) pose an impossible question.....you simply can't discuss from any basis of truth or fact. All I have seen from you is Self fulfilling prophecies "Cam was a top 10 pick, we must only compare him to other top 10 picks" to "What if the Almighty himself had a 1:1 ratio, would you draft him?".

Nothing that resembles any realism. You are still left with one fact...no running QB has ever won a title. History says this pick will again take us further away from our goal. I for one am not satisfied with wild hypotheticals or koolaid induced delusions of "Cam was taken #1 so we must ignore all history."

I prefer to win. I want my team to prefer it also.

Now, I have lost faith in you to admit things you know are true, so we will have to move on. Perhaps you will be willing to honestly discuss this:

Why, in your opinion, did all of the SB winning QBs have such a higher pass/run ratio than Cam/Vick? Why were these guys at around a 1.1:1, while nearly all of the SB winning QBs are above 5:1? What caused this statistical oddity (since you believe it is irrelevant)?

[rodeo]

Wins and TDs is kinda irrelevant

lol ok

[frash.exe]

KJD no one's reading that

[Verge]

Just show me...something. Give me something to hope for in the future and grasp at. Haven't had hope in a while.

[pantherj]

Eliminate his horrible one hopper dirt balls to wide open recievers. If he pulls that crap all season we'll be drafting Luck, and for good reason.

Scamble when nothing is there, and burn the hell out slower defenders. I want bootlegs with Cam on the run and out in the open.

Fix his footwork, it looks worse than when he was in college when the pocket breaks down. That tells me he's scared of getting hurt, and doesn't want to step into trouble. Tough sh!t. That ends when the regular season starts. Step into all throws, they hit your knees, too bad.

Sell the play action better than me in the back yard on Thanksgiving Day.

Step up and lead the offense, it's you or nobody. You don't lead, we head to 0-16. Smith will check out, Shockey will complain to no end, and our RBs will get blasted and injured. Lead.

[CRA]

Eliminate his horrible one hopper dirt balls to wide open recievers. If he pulls that crap all season we'll be drafting Luck, and for good reason.

Scamble when nothing is there, and burn the hell out slower defenders. I want bootlegs with Cam on the run and out in the open.

Fix his footwork, it looks worse than when he was in college when the pocket breaks down. That tells me he's scared of getting hurt, and doesn't want to step into trouble. Tough sh!t. That ends when the regular season starts. Step into all throws, they hit your knees, too bad.

Sell the play action better than me in the back yard on Thanksgiving Day.

Step up and lead the offense, it's you or nobody. You don't lead, we head to 0-16. Smith will check out, Shockey will complain to no end, and our RBs will get blasted and injured. Lead.

More likely it tells you he isn't use to the speed of the game. If he was scared of getting hurt you wouldn't see him diving head first through multiple defenders AND you would see him run out of the pocket more.

[pantherj]

More likely it tells you he isn't use to the speed of the game. If he was scared of getting hurt you wouldn't see him diving head first through multiple defenders AND you would see him run out of the pocket more.

Yeah he's probably not afraid now that I think about it. Still he's gotta fix that nonsense, whatever the cause.

[Davidson Deac II]

Survive the season, and show some improvement by game 8 or so.