Newton's personality reminds me of.............

[Seamonk]

McNabb's regular season never translated over to the post-season, in part because of tougher competition, and in part because he felt the pressure of trying to win it when you can't afford to lose. I liked McNabb but I remember yelling at the screen when he wouldn't hurry the fug up in the 2-minute drill against the Pats in the Superbowl. Time ran out. They lost. As someone who had been to 4 straight NFC championships.. someone who had continual regular season success. That moment defined him.

[CRA]

Manning was a member of the "Almost" club for the better part of his career. McNabb still is. So is Andy Reid. Marty Schottenheimer always will be.

Tony Dungy, Bill Cowher and Steve Young were longtime members of that club before finally breaking out.

but again, Manning didn't meet the critieria of stepping up in big games....which you claim keeps McNabb out of the talk.

My analogy remains, if McNabb's career was the exact same......and in his SB someone returned a kick to give them the win at the end......he would have a ring (but he would be no different). Yet, you say he gets bumped up.....

[Mr. Scot]

You're contridicting yourself!

You just said Manning wasn;t great until he won his ring...

You say Mcnabb isn;t great because he didn't win a ring...

But now when the players don't fit into your qualifications for being great you switch it up...

Jim Kelly Super Bowl performances were not great, he did not win a ring, yet you consider him great? Marino did not win a ring yet you consider him great? If they had great perfomances than they should have won just 1 right???

And I guess Mcnabb got to those games, without great performances.... That's right, he relyed on the Dominate offensive line he had, his hall of fame WR's, and Top notch running backs.... It was his supporting cast that had the great performances to take them to those games.

Here's what you're missing (and misreading).

Rings don't automatically equate to greatness (see: Dilfer, Trent; Hostetler, Jeff and others). Heck, Roethlisberger was borderline awful in the Steelers first Super Bowl with him as starter. he was decent in the second game, but overall lousy in the most recent. He's another I'd call overrated, arguably more so than McNabb.

Kelly, Marino and others still performed well on the big stage even though they didn't win. Heck, so did Jake Delhomme, though I certainly wouldn't call him a great quarterback.

In Manning's pre-Super Bowl performances, he wasn't always great. In the Super Bowl win he was (though I think he shouldn't have won the MVP).

What Fuzz and I are both looking at is performance. Stats, wins and even rings don't tell the whole story. And when it comes to championships, McNabb's performance just hasn't been good enough. And yes, the same can be said of Andy Reid.

I want better than regular season wins, playoff appearances and Sportscenter highlights out of Newton.

[theyhateme45]

but again, Manning didn't meet the critieria of stepping up in big games....which you claim keeps McNabb out of the talk.

My analogy remains, if McNabb's career was the exact same......and in his SB someone returned a kick to give them the win at the end......he would have a ring (but he would be no different). Yet, you say he gets bumped up.....

Because he's hypocrtical and will change and flip his stories to whatever gives no credit to Mcnabb.

In Mr. Scot eyes... if a team wins the superbow the QB/Head coach gets all the credit. If the lose, they get all the balme.... unless your name is Jim Kelly or Marino and it blows that thinking up, but then he makes up some other lame reasoning that contridicts the first!!

Lol he's a walking, typing contridiction!! :smilielol5:

[thefuzz]

So if Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Aikman, Elway. Mcnabb are not great and are all over rated or products of their systems... then who the hell is great! I mean because if these guys are just good, I would hate to know what every other QB is.

Rodgers, Brees, Brady, and Elway are great QB's.

McNabb and Aikman were/are really good ones.

All of them are a little overrated.

How good was Brees in San Diego?

How bad was Philly last season?

What happened to the Pats when Brady went down?

Again, you guys are saying that I said McNabb isn't a good QB...he is, he just isn't a HOF QB, or for that matter a "great" QB.

He is just overrated, no big deal.

[Mr. Scot]

but again, Manning didn't meet the critieria of stepping up in big games....which you claim keeps McNabb out of the talk.

My analogy remains, if McNabb's career was the exact same......and in his SB someone returned a kick to give them the win at the end......he would have a ring (but he would be no different). Yet, you say he gets bumped up.....

Manning didn't before, but now he has. If McNabb can do the same, then he'll cross that threshold too. Until he does, he's still in the "almost" club".

On the flipside is a guy like Ben Roethlisberger (mentioned above) who actually has more rings than Manning but was carried by his team more so than the other way around. By media standards, he's one of the best in the league, but reality is that he's hugely overrated when you look at actual performance.

[theyhateme45]

Here's what you're missing (and misreading).

Rings don't automatically equate to greatness (see: Dilfer, Trent; Hostetler, Jeff and others). Heck, Roethlisberger was borderline awful in the Steelers first Super Bowl with him as starter. he was decent in the second game, but overall lousy in the most recent. He's another I'd call overrated, arguably more so than McNabb.

Kelly, Marino and others still performed well on the big stage even though they didn't win. Heck, so did Jake Delhomme, though I certainly wouldn't call him a great quarterback.

In Manning's pre-Super Bowl performances, he wasn't always great. In the Super Bowl win he was (though I think he shouldn't have won the MVP).

What Fuzz and I are both looking at is performance. Stats, wins and even rings don't tell the whole story. And when it comes to championships, McNabb's performance just hasn't been good enough. And yes, the same can be said of Andy Reid.

I want better than regular season wins, playoff appearances and Sportscenter highlights out of Newton.

When did Kelly perform well on the big stage.... Cause that's not how I remember those superbowls...

Peyton Manning is my favorite Non-Carolina player in the NFL, and if you consider his superbowl performance great... your on something. I've seen Manning great, and that was not great.

Please show me all these Big Stage games where Marino and Kelly performed so much better than Mcnabb! Please show me!

[Mr. Scot]

Because he's hypocrtical and will change and flip his stories to whatever gives no credit to Mcnabb.

In Mr. Scot eyes... if a team wins the superbow the QB/Head coach gets all the credit. If the lose, they get all the balme.... unless your name is Jim Kelly or Marino and it blows that thinking up, but then he makes up some other lame reasoning that contridicts the first!!

Lol he's a walking, typing contridiction!! :smilielol5:

You're not really reading what I wrote, are you? :nonod:

Look again.

Here's what you're missing (and misreading).

Rings don't automatically equate to greatness (see: Dilfer, Trent; Hostetler, Jeff and others). Heck, Roethlisberger was borderline awful in the Steelers first Super Bowl with him as starter. he was decent in the second game, but overall lousy in the most recent. He's another I'd call overrated, arguably more so than McNabb.

Kelly, Marino and others still performed well on the big stage even though they didn't win. Heck, so did Jake Delhomme, though I certainly wouldn't call him a great quarterback.

In Manning's pre-Super Bowl performances, he wasn't always great. In the Super Bowl win he was (though I think he shouldn't have won the MVP).

What Fuzz and I are both looking at is performance. Stats, wins and even rings don't tell the whole story. And when it comes to championships, McNabb's performance just hasn't been good enough. And yes, the same can be said of Andy Reid.

I want better than regular season wins, playoff appearances and Sportscenter highlights out of Newton.

[CRA]

Manning didn't before, but now he has. If McNabb can do the same, then he'll cross that threshold too. Until he does, he's still in the "almost" club".

On the flipside is a guy like Ben Roethlisberger (mentioned above) who actually has more rings than Manning but was carried by his team more so than the other way around. By media standards, he's one of the best in the league, but reality is that he's hugely overrated when you look at actual performance.

So in my hypothetical situation, if a return man had come in at the end and won McNabb a ring in his Superbowl...all other things being the same to date. He is no longer an almost great....you move him to great.

Has Big Ben been carried more in the postseason by his team than Manning?

[Mr. Scot]

When did Kelly perform well on the big stage.... Cause that's not how I remember those superbowls...

Peyton Manning is my favorite Non-Carolina player in the NFL, and if you consider his superbowl performance great... your on something. I've seen Manning great, and that was not great.

Please show me all these Big Stage games where Marino and Kelly performed so much better than Mcnabb! Please show me!

Kelly performed quite well on the big stage. Scott Norwood, not so much. Ditto Thurman Thomas who fumbled away one of their games. There was one Super Bowl where I remember Kelly looking bad (the one in which he was eventually injured and replaced by Frank Reich, who failed to provide the same kind of comeback magic he had against the Oilers).

Marino has a far more limited postseason body of work. He played well in his lone Super Bowl appearance, but Montana outshined him big time.

Answer me this: How good is Roethlisberger really?

[theyhateme45]

You're not really reading what I wrote, are you? :nonod:

Look again.

Really... then read what I wrote: :frown2:

Look again.....

When did Kelly perform well on the big stage.... Cause that's not how I remember those superbowls...

Peyton Manning is my favorite Non-Carolina player in the NFL, and if you consider his superbowl performance great... your on something. I've seen Manning great, and that was not great.

Please show me all these Big Stage games where Marino and Kelly performed so much better than Mcnabb! Please show me!

Where are these big stage prime time performances from Kelly and Marino that they have that Mcnabb doesn;t?? Where???

[Mr. Scot]

So in my hypothetical situation, if a return man had come in at the end and won McNabb a ring in his Superbowl...all other things being the same to date. He is no longer an almost great....you move him to great.

Has Big Ben been carried more in the postseason by his team than Manning?

A return man winning the game doesn't make McNabb's game performance any better.

If McNabb steps up and plays well in a winning effort, then he crosses the threshold. Just being part of a winning effort isn't enough. I'd even accept being part of a losing effort if he had a great performance but the team lost for other reasons.

Roethlisberger has been carried a lot. He has one decent performance in three appearances. His first one was pretty bad (so was Hasselbeck's).

[Mr. Scot]

Really... then read what I wrote: :frown2:

Look again.....

Where are these big stage prime time performances from Kelly and Marino that they have that Mcnabb doesn;t?? Where???

Look above.

And while we're at it, the argument that Elway couldn't win a Super Bowl without Terrell Davis is a valid one, though he also performed well in his final two Super Bowl appearances (especially the one where he had a courageous run near the end).

[CRA]

A return man winning the game doesn't make McNabb's game performance any better.

If McNabb steps up and plays well in a winning effort, then he crosses the threshold. Just being part of a winning effort isn't enough. I'd even accept being part of a losing effort if he had a great performance but the team lost for other reasons.

Roethlisberger has been carried a lot. He has one decent performance in three appearances. His first one was pretty bad (so was Hasselbeck's).

well, if McNabb getting a Superbowl ring in that game despite playing the same doesn't bump him up....

...then I still question the rational of how Manning is great.

Manning has not stepped up in big games....he has done the opposite. Manning didn't play well in the entire postseason run his team won the Superbowl. It ain't like he played great and then for one game relied on his team.....

Look at Manning's AFCCG performances and Superbowl performances.....and tell me how based on your critieria he is great. You just said as far as a Superbowl win goes you need to play great for it to hold weight. You just said being part of a Superbowl win isn't enough.....yet bump Manning b/c of a Superbowl win that he was simply not good in during that entire playoff run.