Just some thoughts on our current NT situation

[Fiz]

i love your NT situation, your DB situation, your WR situation, and your QB situation. should be fun.

WR and DT is fine.

QB is what it is.

CB is.....a problem.

[Jackofalltrades]

Meh... There's only gap that interests me, and it's not anywhere on a football field. Although there are several "gaps" on the sidelines that hold pom poms...

Insightful.

[KSpan]

i love your NT situation, your DB situation, your WR situation, and your QB situation. should be fun.

Loved the Saints' Seahawks situation. That was fun.

WR and DT is fine.

QB is what it is.

CB is.....a problem.

Agreed.

[The Saltman]

You leave jangler alone

[panthers55]

SO do we need a 2 gap NT or not? These discussions are all simplistic and fails to discuss the type of defense we will run or the way we will attack the offense. First of all we have to look at the 4-3 versus 3-4 and then types of 4-3s as well. Teams usuallly run one gap or 2 gap defenses and switch often depending on down and distance. In 1 gap defenses, the defender usually sits in the gap between 2 offensive players and his job is to split the defenders and get pressure by disrupting the blocking scheme and gaining penetration. Two gap defenses where the defender is lined up over top of the defender typically is a read and react defense where the defender engages the offensive man, sees where the blocking it going and then reacts to that by trying to shut down the run and keep the linemen from getting to the second level and engaging the linebackers.

3-4s versus 4-3. In a traditional 3-4 the NT lines up over the center and is in charge of engaging the center and the guard on either side typically protecting both the A gap on both sides of center between the guards. It is usually a read and react position. THe DEs typicaly line up over the tackles and again control both the guard and tackle gaps known as the B and C gaps. The linebackers are lined up behind the defensive linemen typically in the gaps between them. THe idea is for the linemen to engage the offensive guys and clog them up so that the linebackers can flow to the play. There are all kind of variations of this and some 3-4 defenses like Baltimore, and the Jets rely on 2 technique guys at the nose but use more 1 gap penetrating guys at DEs. So the middle guys reads and reacts and the ends crash in and try and be disruptive.

What about the 4-3 and what we will run? 4-3s also come in many varieties and teams will sometimes go from a 3-4 back to a 4-3 and vice versa. New England does this alot. But the 4-3 simply has 4 linemen instead of 3 with 2 tackles and 2 DEs. Most 4-3 defense are called 4-3 under or 4-3 over defenses. THey shift between the 2 depending on where they are on the field, down and distance and how the offense lines up.

Traditionally the nose tackle is a guy around 330 pounds who occupied the A gap between the center and guard in the A gap on the weak side or the side without the tight end. The other tackle called the under tackle is usually around 300 pounds and lines up in the B gap between the guard and tackle on the strong side (the side the TE lines up on). The defensive ends are lined up outside of the tackles bringing pressure from the outside. In this defense the defenders are lined up in the gaps and attack that gap and clog them up so as to not let anything get through on a run and get penetration against the pass.

http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine.html

Here is a discussion about the 4-3 over/under which is what we run. The over or under simply refers to whether we shade the attack to the strong side of the field (with tight end) or to the weak side (without TE). Keep in mind that the duties of the linemen and linebackers shifts depending on whether we are in an under or over. Also note that the biggest shifts are where the linebackers line up. For example in 4-3 under the Sam linebacker is almost on the line of scrimmage.

http://www.gridironprophet.com/4-3.html

When we had guys like Kemo(NT) he would play on the outside shoulder of the center on the strong side and the (SSDE)DE, like Brayton on that side would line up over the tackle or between the gap between the tackle and end and be primarily run defenders and rush the passer as they could on passing plays. THe other DT would play in the B gap and the DE would play in the C gap and both were in 1 gap penetrating mode. The idea was for them to bring the pressure since each would only have 1 defender to get around. That is why guys like Damione Lewis and Peppers were successful getting pressure.

THis year the plan was for Edwards to occupy the NT position, for guys like McClain to occupy the under tackle and get pressure while the strong side DE Johnson will protect the run and get pressure and the other DE- Hardy/Brown will primarily rush the passer and protect the outside run.

Can we adapt without a 2 technique NT. Yes we can but there will be tradeoffs. Without a big body to occupy two offensive guys in the middle, we will be suspect to the power running game between the tackles. We may get more pressure against the pass with smaller faster guys but could be gashed especially by teams with bigger lines, and as the game wears on and fatigue sets in. Could we go to a more traditional 4-3 instead of an over and under? Yes we can but the tradeoff is that we won't be as effective blitzing since we will have to use linebackers more to stop the run than to attack the defense and penetrate the gaps.

Could we use schemes to offset less dominant personnel? That is what we obvious will do. The best way to kep offenses off balance to to call lots of shifts and stunts, change up the blocking and use overloads and bliting to confuse them. But the best thing we can do is hope that one of our current guys can develop into a nose tackle or we find a stop gap like we did with Hollis Thomas who can come in this year and play.

[chknwing]

we will pick up someone when teams start to make their cuts.

[Galvatron]

The last week of September is going to be crazy with cuts and signings...Seems like a long time to wait, but at least there's football between now and then!

[PantherBrew]

There are some veteran big, big guys that are still unsigned.

Some of those include: Shaun Rodgers, Pat Williams, Justin Harrell, Jimmy Kennedy.

One of these guys could be a good stop gap for one season, while Ron rehabs.

[bleys]

Excellent post. Small correction...KJ was a 2nd rounder.

correction, Jenkins was a 3rd round draft pick.

[Highlandfire]

Okay so Edwards is done for the year and that's a big blow. He was an amazingly productive player for KC over the years and every Chiefs fan I've talked to expressed sadness that he was both gone and injured. He was your typical Hurney FA signing; productive, under the radar, and cheap.

Just flipping through this forum I see a lot of people bemoaning our lack of a "NT." I want to get you people over this. Far too often I see people analyzing the current or future Panthers from within a very strict spectrum of characteristics. I'm not going to provide specific examples but I think you all know what I'm talking about.

"Well, we need a big guy in the middle and a small quick guy beside him. The big guy has to take up 2 blockers to free up the little guy. Also the defensive ends do something I dunno"

this is a very simplistic view of modern day football and isn't relevant.

I've made a thread with the following information before but I'm going to do it again.

What's a two gap v. one gap defensive tackle?

The quick and easy way to describe it is this. If you're watching from the press box behind the defense, you'll be able to read the name on a 2 gap DT's jersey, and you won't be able to on a 1 gap. This is primarily determined by body type. It takes a very specific player to do this (width is the main concern) and there aren't many good ones in the NFL. After QB and DE, they're arguably the most sought after players.

That does not mean you need one of them.

What is a technique?

Fancy way of saying "where do you line up?" A zero technique lines up right over the Center, and it goes out from there, with two numbers per gap.

this just impacts how you play the game and how you attack the QB/RB. It goes from 0 all the way out to "Florida State Defensive End."

Don't get too caught up in this.

Oh fug we don't have a great two technique

Well most teams don't. There's different ways to generate pressure.

Another thing posters here need to disabuse themselves from is the notion that you have to have a fat guy to take up two players, or disrupt the offensive line. This is very much not the case.

Dallas, for example, plays Jay Ratliff at NT. Weighing in at less that 285, he's smaller than forums poster Jangler, but is one of the most disruptive at his position in the league. He does this by excelling as a one technique DT. He's so quick off the snap, so powerful, and so fast, he forces offensive lines to commit two players to him. He's not the ideal size or height, but he's effective as poo. Who cares how big he is?

so are you going to give us reason to be hopeful?

Yeah, kinda. The Panthers have a gaggle of people that won't turn any heads as of yet, but I seem to remember a pretty good 2nd round defensive tackle that absolutely blew the fug up in 2002 after his sleep apnea was diagnosed. If you can be inventive and utilize your players strengths, you can overcome size deficiencies in the middle. Remember, taking up two blockers can be just as effective against the run as blowing up the running lane before the play develops.

Apparently Zod is very high on Terrell McClain. Take his word for it, not mine. I haven't seen him take a snap yet, but be hopeful if that's your thing.

Just don't think that the absence of Edwards immediately precludes us from ever tackling a running back. there are ways around this and a smart DC can orchestrate them.

BTW in between the 0 and 1 gap is a 'shade' technique or position. Just a little FYI from a former DL coach :D The technique is esp used in 5 man fronts

[rayzor]

trevor pryce from the jets and the ravens before that might be a good option. he's not someone you look at the stat numbers and see much in the way of sacks or tackles but the guy gets pressure on the QB and demands extra attention from blockers. he got 15 QB pressures last year on 196 snaps (tied for 2nd on the team). he's not a mountain NT like many of us would like to see, but he's also no midget at 6'5 390. problem is that he is 36 years old, although his 15 years in the league should bring some valuable experience to the table to help with the younger guys on the roster. not much more than a 1 year guy, but still would be enough. btw...he did take a good few snaps at NT for the jets.

another guy i would like is jimmy kennedy, but really only for rotation. i'd like to see what he could do away from the williams wall. he didn't do great alst year but he did really well in '09.

[CatMan72]

Good post...

My concern isn't so much about body type as it is about trying to use a mix of rookies and rotational players to fill this need. I know most everybody is nobody before they are somebody, but I think we will see the Panther sign or trade for another vet to play NT.

[CatMan72]

Jamal Williams is a FA right now and Rivera has some history with him in SD... might be the guy?

[rayzor]

Good post...

My concern isn't so much about body type as it is about trying to use a mix of rookies and rotational players to fill this need. I know most everybody is nobody before they are somebody, but I think we will see the Panther sign or trade for another vet to play NT.

agreed here. as much as i would like it to be a NT, it doesn't have to be. a big concern for me is just the lack of experience in the interior. edwards gave me a lot of confidence because of his talent, but mainly because of the level of experience he brought. i think we have a good bit of potential there with the young guys and i'm going to include irvin in that group, but i just think we'd be better off with someone who has a significant non-sucky playing time.