Does Chud. Run a West Coast Offense?

[pantherclaw]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post?id=23120

Thanks mav. That interesting.

Been watching football longer than he's been alive. I still stand by what i've said.

If i get the time, i'll try to dig up some more info.

[Kevin Greene]

Cam is now Joe Montana :D

Now all we need is Roger Craig to produce 1000/1000 and we're golden.

[mav1234]

Thanks mav. That interesting.

Been watching football longer than he's been alive. I still stand by what i've said.

If i get the time, i'll try to dig up some more info.

You've been watching football for longer than me, so I'm not trying to doubt your word on this, but this is up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense#History_and_use_of_the_term and it might illuminate why many are calling it a west coast offense a bit.

Second time the term was used was by Bernie Kosar to refer to coryell systems. First time was Parcells in reference to Walsh stuff.

In 1993, a Bernie Kosar quotation used to describe the 1993 Dallas Cowboys' offense as 'West Coast offense' was publicized by Sports Illustrated writer Paul Zimmerman ("Dr. Z"). Originally Kosar had meant a comparison to the "Air Coryell" system used by west coast teams in the 1970s, the San Diego Chargers and Oakland Raiders.

and

Kosar used the term to describe the offense formalized by Sid Gillman with the AFL Chargers in the 1960s and later by Don Coryell's St. Louis Cardinals and Chargers in the 1970s and 1980s. Al Davis, an assistant under Gillman, also carried his version to the Oakland Raiders, where his successors John Rauch, John Madden, and Tom Flores continued to employ and expand upon its basic principles. This is the "West Coast Offense" as Kosar originally used the term. However, it is now commonly referred to as the "Air Coryell" timed system, and instead the term West Coast Offense is usually used to describe Bill Walsh's system.

it's totally possible that the players were introduced to the system as a west coast offense by the coaches, never know.

[mj4life]

could be wrong but i think kalil is refering to our offense as west coast cause of the terminolgy such as three digit numbering for wr & te routes etc

[Cyberjag]

link?

I cant imagine kalil erroring like that.

I've been a pro football fanatic all my life. Long enough to know the coryell offense pre dates the WCO.

Now the WCO may be a short timing offense based upon the coryell, but it is not the other way around.

Like panther55 said, the west coast offense (named that not for its origin either), uses short passing instead of a heavy running game. Doesnt mean they still cant have good running games, but it is a different style. Heavily based on timing, short passes, big receivers that can get yac.

Most coryell based offenses use a dominate run game, and play action. In todays day and age, there are so many various versions of both offenses.

Another thing, if chud was going to run a WCO, the panthers would not have drafted cam, and they would have made an effort to attain mcnabb.

Kalil said it on his twitter feed.

Based on everyone's history, you would think that we were going to run a Turner variant of the Coryell offense. That means run to set up the pass, lots of movement before the snap, and a premium on QB protection. We expect more passing to the Tight Ends and a lot of designed passing plays to the running backs.

WCO is generally accepted as a horizontal offense where the pass sets up the run. Maybe that's what we're running in practice, I don't know. Maybe we're vertical, but still setting up the running game with the pass and that's what Kalil and Reed are talking about.

Does it really matter though? All I want to see is something more effective than a Davidson offense. Call it what you will, just put some points on the board. :)

[mav1234]

I think you are right, Chris about it being an issue of semantics - to me, it doesn't matter if we call it a west coast offense or call it air coryell... I don't think WCO is incorrect but it may not be as helpful as air coryell, and might mislead some people. But the players running it know what it's going to be like as far as plays, and they may have even heard "original WCO" or something as you said, and from that some of us get into silly technical fights about something.

I don't think Kalil or Smitty/Reed were actually wrong, they just may not have been as accurate about the offense as some here would like. ;)

[Sword]

The Panthers will also have designed run plays for Cam Newton and possibly even Armanti Edwards.

As for the offense, Williams said he likes it.

"The number system, West Coast; I had my first taste of it at the Senior Bowl coming out of college with Norv Turner," Williams said. "So I had a little exposure to it. The running backs are all over the offense, which is pretty cool."

http://www.gastongazette.com/articles/spartanburg-59580-deep-going.html

another player referencing it..but I think we can all tell they are referring to the Turner style Coryell..my wonder is if it's a number system will Cam just have to say "36" at the line and that's a play? >.>

[carpanfan96]

The common thread with both the Walsh and Coryell offense is that they were largely based off of principles put in place by Sid Gillman.

Coryell learned the offense while with the Chargers and Walsh learned it while with the Raiders Under Al Davis. Al Davis learned it from Gillman in SD.

What's widely considered the West Coast Offense now "Bill Walsh's 49er's Offense" Was largely based off of the passing offense of Gillman in it's philosophies. Because of QB limitations, Walsh turned the Gillman offense into a more horizontal passing game to make more effective use of Cincinnati's current QB at that time.

When becoming the HC for the 49ers, Walsh modified his offense even more. Still was largely based off of Gillman's philosophies of passing the football.

Now when I say that Walsh kept the philosophies of Sid Gillman's offense it tact with his offense, I mean a few things.

1. The most important thing when passing the football is timing. The Qb must time his throws in accordance with the routes called.

2. Route timing, Each route has a distinct timing and delivery point.

3. Routes are used to spread the field to open up holes in the zone or mismatches in man coverage. Also spread's the defense allowing for longer gains when running the ball.

The Gillman offense was largely based off of timing routes and defensive mis-matches, using anywhere from 2-5 receivers to stretch the field both vertically and horizontally, while using the pass to set up the run. Gillman was the first coach to use routes to set up the defense with long routes and intermediate routes combined to stretch defenses out, allowing the qb to hit spots based off of timing and coverage. Gillman's offense also heavily used the FB, TE and HB as receiving threats while most coaches viewed them as components to the run game.

I'm not saying one or the other as I don't care what is called what, or which is the WCO or any of that stuff.

Just this one tidbit

What's considered the "Real WCO" is the Sid Gillman offense philosophy or Air Coryell as it's called today.

If not for Gillman there would be no Air Coryell or WCO.

[carpanfan96]

http://www.gastongazette.com/articles/spartanburg-59580-deep-going.html

another player referencing it..but I think we can all tell they are referring to the Turner style Coryell..my wonder is if it's a number system will Cam just have to say "36" at the line and that's a play? >.>

If you want to go even further into, years ago Mike Martz called the Coryell offense the original west coast offense. I would give that distinction to Sid Gillman, but that's just me.

Read this please > http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/dr_z/news/1999/10/28/inside_football/

But that's kid stuff compared to the way I feel about the term "West Coast Offense." I've belabored the subject many times before. But here it comes again, this time keyed by a very interesting conversation I had the other day with the current darling of the offensive coordinator set, St. Louis' Mike Martz, who has put together the NFL's most dynamic attack. We talked about the Real West Coast Offense, the one he coaches.

There are three practitioners of the Real West Coast Offense, three men whose roots go right back to the beginning -- to Sid Gillman of the San Diego Chargers in the 1960s, and before him, Francis (Shut-the-Gates-of-Mercy) Schmidt at Ohio State.

[pantherclaw]

To clarify what *i* meant when i said we arent running a WCO, is that we arent running the walsh version, which is what is typically known as the WCO. Teams that currently run this type of offense is eagles, vikings. There are verticle aspects to these offenses, but not like the coryell offenses such as norv turner, and what chud is bringing to the panthers.

Sorry for the confusion, gentlemen.

Another example of the system that chud is bringing here, think back to the eary 90's dallas cowboys. That is a norv turner coryell offense. Chud's offense is based on the same offense, with new wrinkles, especially considering cam newtons abilities.l

[carpanfan96]

To clarify what *i* meant when i said we arent running a WCO, is that we arent running the walsh version, which is what is typically known as the WCO. Teams that currently run this type of offense is eagles, vikings. There are verticle aspects to these offenses, but not like the coryell offenses such as norv turner, and what chud is bringing to the panthers.

Sorry for the confusion, gentlemen.

Another example of the system that chud is bringing here, think back to the eary 90's dallas cowboys. That is a norv turner coryell offense. Chud's offense is based on the same offense, with new wrinkles, especially considering cam newtons abilities.l

I know what you meant when you said WCO, I was just explaining the offense and where it started out at.

Everyone means Bill Walsh's Offense passing style when talking about WCO now. It pre-dates him though and Sid Gillman doesn't get mentioned a whole lot when talking about the WCO or the Air Coryell system. When in fact, they are both based off of his Chargers offense that he ran in the 60's. I mean hell, Coryell and his staff at SDst used to go watch Gillman's practices and make notes and so forth on what they saw.

Walsh learned most of the philosophies he used in making his WCO from Al Davis, who learned his passing offense from Sid Gillman.

Timed based routes, set QB drops, Spreading the defense with designed routes and using the pass to set up the run where all major parts of Gillman's offense.

[HPPantherzfan]

What I find funny is people on here claiming they know what type of offense we run...play action fake for 50 yard bombs...move the ball downfield...LOL.

In case you all haven't noticed..in practice most of the plays have been short passes under 10 yards. Yes, they have been CALLED plays. People have said there goes Jimmy again; and they are right, he is doing exactly what the coaches called for him to do. Even with Cam in, MOST have been dump off passes under 10 yards or runs.

Point is, this is a new coaching staff and we haven't seen a single game they have game planned for yet everyone knows we are going to do?

Again, for anyone that has actually been to the camps and watched the practice this would all make sense, most plays that are practiced are the "dump off" plays you all hate so much.

[CRA]

What I find funny is people on here claiming they know what type of offense we run...play action fake for 50 yard bombs...move the ball downfield...LOL.

In case you all haven't noticed..in practice most of the plays have been short passes under 10 yards. Yes, they have been CALLED plays. People have said there goes Jimmy again; and they are right, he is doing exactly what the coaches called for him to do. Even with Cam in, MOST have been dump off passes under 10 yards or runs.

Point is, this is a new coaching staff and we haven't seen a single game they have game planned for yet everyone knows we are going to do?

Again, for anyone that has actually been to the camps and watched the practice this would all make sense, most plays that are practiced are the "dump off" plays you all hate so much.

you can't watch Jimmy Clausen in practice and understand what Chud is about.......downfield throws aren't just 50 yard bombs......but they are farther downfield than Clausen thinks about. Go watch Clevelands offense and what Chud did........

Of course MOST passes will be short.....but that doesn't mean the downfield throws don't drive his offense and aren't the key to it. Again, look at when Chud's offense worked in Clev......and Cam is making those throws already (Clausen isn't).

[HPPantherzfan]

you can't watch Jimmy Clausen in practice and understand what Chud is about.......downfield throws aren't just 50 yard bombs......but they are farther downfield than Clausen thinks about. Go watch Clevelands offense and what Chud did........

Of course MOST passes will be short.....but that doesn't mean the downfield throws don't drive his offense and aren't the key to it. Again, look at when Chud's offense worked in Clev......and Cam is making those throws already (Clausen isn't).

Just saying, none of us have any idea what this coaching staff has planned. We should all stop pretending like we do.

Speculation for the sake of argument is one thing, stating things as fact is another.

While what you say may be true, I can only tell you what I've seen. The passes Jimmy has been ask to throw in practice have been short and he has done an ok job with them. I have noticed that Cam has an issue with some of the shorter routes...especially if he is rolling to his right. There is no doubt that regardless of who is playing the QB position this year there will be packages build around Cam. My guess at this time is you will see both QB playing this year, Clausen for the regular offense which will be short dump off passes and Cam for, lack of a better term, "wildcat".