Did Richardson set us up for success

[panthers55]

You obviously aren't considering a couple of factors;

1. Hurney is the master of the salary cap, and

2. The only reason contracts were front loaded with large bonuses were to keep the per year salaries down ie "working the cap" because under previous CBA rules the signing bonus didn't count towards the cap. That's why Hurney typically gave large signing bonuses with lower per year salaries at the front of the contract and escalating salaries at the back of the contract, or "backloading". That allowed for restructuring of the contract when it got to the larger per year salaries at the back end of the contract. When he would again give a signing bonus with small per year salaries for a few years. Why would Hurney continue to do business the "old way" after the rules change?

If you think Hurney won't adapt to the new rules and find a way to make it work in his favor you are sadly mistaken.

Actually I have considered all your points.

Hurney is not that great with the salary cap but it is not terrible either. For example we had to restructure Delhomme because we couldn't pay Peppers (another bad move) and get under the cap. All of that could have been avoided if we had signed Peppers long-term or traded him when we could. Look at a team like New England and you can see a team that manages the cap and draft much better than us.

Actually we give large signing bonuses because players won't sign without them and other teams will pay it if we don't. Signing bonuses are actually terrible for a team in that you pay guaranteed money no matter what they do. Most contracts are actually back loaded because that money is not guaranteed and you can cut players and not pay it. With a signing bonus you have to accerlerate the bonus and pay it when you cut them. If teams did what they wanted to do, contracts would have roster bonuses and incentive clauses and very little upfront money. that mitigates the risk. Restructuring is not a great thing as you have to convert it to guaranteed money and pay it regardless of performance. Teams do it out of necessity not out of desire.

I think you need to do some more reading before you keep posting. You seem to be confused about several key issues.

[panthers55]

He's continuing to push? I haven't read that, but I haven't been obsessive about football since all this mess started. And I get what you're saying, but I still trust JR despite his bad decision. At least he was trying something, and it was the wrong thing. He did that before with Sieffert, and then we got on the right track again. Maybe this pain will lead to something good at some point, right?

And I also think that Fox remains a good coach. But I also think that the lame-duck status had a lot to do with how Fox was approaching things. Can you imagine him sticking Clausen out there and not really adjusting a game-plan for him if he felt like he was going to have to stick with him for several years to come? Would he have benched Gamble? I think there are a lot of things a coach does that are borne in planning for future years, he did none of them, and that's why lame-duck staffs typically underperform.

I doubt we would have had 7 wins, but I bet we would have had 4-5, even with the youth. And that's what I'm thinking for this year, 4-5 wins. But there will be plenty of glimpses of the future, and that could be fairly bright. :)

The reason that Kraft, Mara and several others have joined the negotiations to give a moderate swing to the negotiations and to moderate Richardson. If you look at the current deal it is much better than some owners want with richardson being one of them. It wasn't until the other owners joined in that we got some traction as of late.

The issue is that richardson could have made changes without making wholesale ones. Many of the player that were cut were going to be gone after 2010 anyway. So the old needing to cut the veterans doesn't hold water. I have talked about that ad nauseum and won't keep beating a dead horse. It was last year and that is history. But no one else did what Richardson did and for good reason.

Kansas City cut some players and went with a youth movement but not to the extent that Richardson did. He did too much too soon and that was the problem.

I agree with you that we will be better and things will improve. There are some small silver linings to last year such as getting Newton and generally having a pretty good draft class. If they can sign their core players and convince Smith to stay we should get 5 or 6 wins this year.

[panthers55]

Another thing to keep in mind, JR is out to win championships, not to go 9-7. This whole master plan started after the NFC Championship implosion and he knew we had to find a QB. I think he realized even if we had Sam Bradford last year we were a couple years away from competing again, based on the time it takes a rookie QB to get up to speed in order to compete for a Championship. Again, compete for a Championship is the key word. None of the other phenom rookie QBs are winning championships yet. Our current roster would have been too old to wait the couple of years necessary, so he took the opportunity to go young and rebuild. It just so happened that we had an uncapped year so we could cut dead weight.

I can assure you it was a very difficult decision and one with risks. The NFL is a young man's league and I think looking back it is going to prove to be a good decision if the players we have brought in (Cam) and players we will bring in pan out.

The 2005 problems were excessive injuries and lack of depth. Coupled with a poor game plan that died on the vine when we couldn't feed the stud (Smitty because they took him away). We didn't try and improve the quarterback situation until after 06 with Carr another disaster. We didn't try and sign any veteran quarterbacks or draft any until clausen in 2010 so I really don't see your argument as valid at all.

Again most of the old vets would have been gone after 2010 but would have provided mentoring and leadership to a team without it. You don't go on a youth movement and expect to win championships unless you have guys who have been there and done that. Richardson went young to save money plain and simple. If you are naive enough to believe the crap they fed you feel free. But honestly when you spray it out there it smells like the manure it is.

This year we are rebuilding and trying to field a competitive team and we will be better. But that joke of a team last year was competitive it was embarrassing and totally unnecessary.

[panthers55]

I think JR set us up to be in the best position possible with the ensuing lock-out and the fact he knew we were in need of an overhaul. People probably forget, but KC did the same thing a couple of years ago and they had some good draft classes and wise free agency acquisitions and they are now sitting in a great position and young.

Time will only tell if JR's plan was smart. We likely still would be looking for a QB if he didn't do this because we would have won a lot more games last year. Just depends on your perspective.

He set us up if there was no football in 2011 but there will be. His philosophy was totally wrong and it blew up last year. Other teams had successful years like Tampa with a very young team and are just as poised for success as we are. Only they won 10 games last year not 2. He screwed up plain and simple. Admit it and move on.

[jtm]

The 2005 problems were excessive injuries and lack of depth. Coupled with a poor game plan that died on the vine when we couldn't feed the stud (Smitty because they took him away). We didn't try and improve the quarterback situation until after 06 with Carr another disaster. We didn't try and sign any veteran quarterbacks or draft any until clausen in 2010 so I really don't see your argument as valid at all.

Again most of the old vets would have been gone after 2010 but would have provided mentoring and leadership to a team without it. You don't go on a youth movement and expect to win championships unless you have guys who have been there and done that. Richardson went young to save money plain and simple. If you are naive enough to believe the crap they fed you feel free. But honestly when you spray it out there it smells like the manure it is.

This year we are rebuilding and trying to field a competitive team and we will be better. But that joke of a team last year was competitive it was embarrassing and totally unnecessary.

Sorry I am a bit off my game today - meant 2008 season and loss to Cards in playoffs. I honestly believe JR knew at that moment that he needed to get a franchise QB and we couldn't win a championship with an average QB. I think he realized it would take a couple of years to draft and develop a QB. At the time we would be ready again to compete for championship, our roster at that time would have been a bit old - so time for the youth movement.

^^ coupled with an uncapped year which would allow us to cut dead weight and a pending lock-out made it an easier decision. I don't think we will know if it is a success or not for a couple years. Scary that Cam most likely will be the determining factor.

I know many think JR is a tight wad, but I am not one of those people. Last year is the only year (to my memory) that JR has been tight. I will give someone the benefit of the doubt for 15-16 years of spending. But that's just me. :)

[Zcustom]

Actually I have considered all your points.

Hurney is not that great with the salary cap but it is not terrible either. For example we had to restructure Delhomme because we couldn't pay Peppers (another bad move) and get under the cap. All of that could have been avoided if we had signed Peppers long-term or traded him when we could. Look at a team like New England and you can see a team that manages the cap and draft much better than us.

Actually we give large signing bonuses because players won't sign without them and other teams will pay it if we don't. Signing bonuses are actually terrible for a team in that you pay guaranteed money no matter what they do. Most contracts are actually back loaded because that money is not guaranteed and you can cut players and not pay it. With a signing bonus you have to accerlerate the bonus and pay it when you cut them. If teams did what they wanted to do, contracts would have roster bonuses and incentive clauses and very little upfront money. that mitigates the risk. Restructuring is not a great thing as you have to convert it to guaranteed money and pay it regardless of performance. Teams do it out of necessity not out of desire.

I think you need to do some more reading before you keep posting. You seem to be confused about several key issues.

Well we'll just have to see what happens now won't we.

I'd put a wager on it but you find a way to claim you're correct no matter what the situation.

The only thing I'm confused about is how you can claim to be a successful business man yet be such a pompous douche.

[CRA]

Sorry I am a bit off my game today - meant 2008 season and loss to Cards in playoffs. I honestly believe JR knew at that moment that he needed to get a franchise QB and we couldn't win a championship with an average QB. I think he realized it would take a couple of years to draft and develop a QB. At the time we would be ready again to compete for championship, our roster at that time would have been a bit old - so time for the youth movement.

^^ coupled with an uncapped year which would allow us to cut dead weight and a pending lock-out made it an easier decision. I don't think we will know if it is a success or not for a couple years. Scary that Cam most likely will be the determining factor.

I know many think JR is a tight wad, but I am not one of those people. Last year is the only year (to my memory) that JR has been tight. I will give someone the benefit of the doubt for 15-16 years of spending. But that's just me. :)

I think at that moment JR knew Fox was gone. No excuse for the AZ game......it was poor coaching IMO more than poor QB play. Jake didn't have to be throwing. Fox was a disaster and both sides of the ball in that game.....and the 2008 team probably was better suited to go the distance than the 03 team.

[I am Hubby]

He set us up if there was no football in 2011 but there will be. His philosophy was totally wrong and it blew up last year. Other teams had successful years like Tampa with a very young team and are just as poised for success as we are. Only they won 10 games last year not 2. He screwed up plain and simple. Admit it and move on.

No disrespect meant, but the truth is, that very few people actually know what rasonale JR was using when he implemented "his philosophy". You are claiming that JR KNEW there would be no football this year, and because there is football his plan, and thinking, were flawed, and "blew up in his face". Until you can provide inside info backing your claim, I will continue to believe his plan was, and is, to rebuild and reload.

Also, Tampa was in year two with Freeman, so that comparison is a bit skewed. By next year, and I am hopeful that we actually improve as this year progresses, we should be right on track.

Young teams can compete. If they have a QB. KC has Cassel, Tampa has Freeman, and we now have Cameron. And by extension, many teams rebuilding plans never pan out, leaving them in scramble mode for years. Meant or by accident, our rebuilding is coming along nicely, at least in my little corner of Panther Nation.

Just my thoughts, and of course GOOOO PANTHERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pantherclaw]

I don't play what if games.

It leads to accusations.

[Udogg]

He set us up if there was no football in 2011 but there will be. His philosophy was totally wrong and it blew up last year. Other teams had successful years like Tampa with a very young team and are just as poised for success as we are. Only they won 10 games last year not 2. He screwed up plain and simple. Admit it and move on.

If any of our QB's played like Josh Freeman ,we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Our defense played very well considering. Almost universally especially after the way he ended the 09 year, everyone thought Moore would be the answer at QB. Plus you can't honestly say his philosophy was wrong or right at this point. But if you going to blow up a team, last year was the year to do it. We go into a new CBA with flexibility. TBH best case scenario considering where we were.

[Cyberjag]

The reason that Kraft, Mara and several others have joined the negotiations to give a moderate swing to the negotiations and to moderate Richardson. If you look at the current deal it is much better than some owners want with richardson being one of them.

Is this speculation? If not, I'm interested in reading more about it, but I didn't see any stories in a quick and lazy internet search. Got a link? :)

BTW, Tampa did their "purge" a year earlier, with the staff getting released and fewer veterans cut. But they did dump several leaders on both sides (Garcia, Dunn, Brooks, Galloway). They just did it all in one year, and fell from 9-7 to 3-13. I think that had the Panthers (Richardson) not hedged against the lockout, we would have gone with a new staff a year or two earlier and done our purge all at once too. And given our personnel, that could have meant a few 5-6 win years before we climbed back to the top.

A sad reality of the NFL is that you usually have to have a really down year to get a great player (and we all hope Newton is great). If things had unfolded differently, we would likely be going into 2011 with Clausen as the heir apparent at QB. So there's definitely a silver lining there, and since I had to pay for tickets for a team that I know isn't going anywhere, I'll take all the silver linings I can get right now. ;)

[MHS831]

Fox was not developing young players. When he was forced to, we learned that we have Charles Johnson, James Anderson, David Gettis, Brandon Lafell, Captain Munnerlyn, Mike Godson, etc. Had it been totally up to him and barring injury, we would have thought Clausen was the future because he would have never seen the field.

Now that he is gone, I look for Jordan Pugh to step up, along with Everette Brown, Greg Hardy, Armanti Edwards, and Dan Connor.

Throw in the return of Thomas Davis and Jeff Otah, we could be very good very quickly.

[Cyberjag]

Fox was not developing young players? We have one of the most home-grown rosters in the league. How does that happen unless you develop your young talent?

I think there's a consensus that he played some vets longer than he should have, but he never shied away from playing a rookie when that rookie was clearly ready.

[Davidson Deac II]

Fox was not developing young players. When he was forced to, we learned that we have Charles Johnson, James Anderson, David Gettis, Brandon Lafell, Captain Munnerlyn, Mike Godson, etc. .

Don't agree at all. For one thing, Fox was forced to bring along the young guys last year and we were the worst team in the NFL because of it. Fox had a history of bringing the young players along at a very good pace prior to last year, especially on defense. We built most of our team through the draft with Fox developing those young players. Throwing them to the lions their first season does not equal developing them. He took young guys, and gave them a chance to develope at a good pace. Thats how most good NFL coaches do it.

Fox's issues were with his complete inability to develope a passing game. Didn't matter if it were younger players, older players or middle aged players. And you can't win in the NFL these days if you can't pass.