Court engaged in "settlement talks", court-ordered mediation for next week cancelled!

[ElIngeniero]

Who? I can assure you whoever that person is would end up wanting the same thing the NFL owners want or they would embezzle most of the players' money. Either way, it won't work.

A bunch of players that have no business sense couldn't even be trusted to find the right people to manage the NFL. I don't think you are crediting the owners with the fact that the NFL is as great as it is today because they have done a great job getting it to this point. Do you really think anyone would know who Tom Brady is without the NFL?

1) Much of the NFL is run by previous players...JR is the only owner I know of (correct me if I'm wrong), but much of the management were previously players.

2) As a business owner, I typically seek out people who played some sport throughout their highschool/college careers. They typically are focused and driven to succeed no matter the task given them. They also, at least in my experience, typically the ones that are eager to better themselves and as such they receive promotions faster than others.

3) Do you think the NFL would be as great without the superstars such as Tom Brady? Point is...it's a symbiotic relationship and one cannot be so successful without the other.

[ElIngeniero]

I guess we can agree to disagree because I don't think any new businessmen would give the players a better deal. It is tough to speculate because there are so many factors that are not determined with out hypo.

While you are speculating--my post is based on past history. The AFL operated from 1960 until 1969 when it was consumed by the NFL. I can't find the source right now, but player salaries in 1966 (don't remember year) totaled 7 million in both leagues and the AFL had fewer teams.

[ElIngeniero]

It is tough to speculate because there are so many factors that are not determined with out hypo.

This has been my entire conversation (with myself, mostly :))...the reality is, there are a number of people here that are completely blaming the players for us not having football. The fact is, had the players NOT decertified, we still would not be any closer to having a season. The reality is that decertification has nothing to do with getting a deal done--it's simply a tactic to avoid a stalemate. By decertifying, the players get the issue into the court system (because courts typically will not deal with union/owner conflicts).

I hope something gets worked out soon--but the fans are getting screwed over either way. Owner's will cite the fact that player costs are driving ticket prices up...not this year--but likely next.

[thunderraiden]

This has been my entire conversation (with myself, mostly :))...the reality is, there are a number of people here that are completely blaming the players for us not having football. The fact is, had the players NOT decertified, we still would not be any closer to having a season. The reality is that decertification has nothing to do with getting a deal done--it's simply a tactic to avoid a stalemate. By decertifying, the players get the issue into the court system (because courts typically will not deal with union/owner conflicts).

I hope something gets worked out soon--but the fans are getting screwed over either way. Owner's will cite the fact that player costs are driving ticket prices up...not this year--but likely next.

No... the owners didn't want to lockout, thats evident by the fact they presented two contracts to the players union which the union didn't even look at. What's more, the players have yet to even consider a counter-proposal to the owners. The players union never intended to settle for any type of compromise. They masterfully made everyone forget that the NFL did give the players union financial statements of every team before the lockout by the players union claiming that the financial statements were worthless, which is what the NFL assumed the players would have said Day 1 had they opened the books to them.

[jtm]

1) Much of the NFL is run by previous players...JR is the only owner I know of (correct me if I'm wrong), but much of the management were previously players.

2) As a business owner, I typically seek out people who played some sport throughout their highschool/college careers. They typically are focused and driven to succeed no matter the task given them. They also, at least in my experience, typically the ones that are eager to better themselves and as such they receive promotions faster than others.

3) Do you think the NFL would be as great without the superstars such as Tom Brady? Point is...it's a symbiotic relationship and one cannot be so successful without the other.

Answer 1 - don't have the stats but I would say that a small percentage of players run the NFL and JR is the ONLY ex-player that is also an owner.

Answer 2 - I use to do the same because they are typically very competitive which normally equates to success. However, you need business sense as well. I doubt seriously that you are saying that NFL players would make good business people because they are athletes.

Answer 3 - No I do not think it would be as great without the players. However, players come and go and teams rarely do. What happened when Joe Montana retired? He was replaced by Steve Young and the 49ers continued on. This is my premise. The NFL made the players famous and great; the players did not make the NFL great. Without the conduit most NFL players would be flipping burgers.

[jtm]

This has been my entire conversation (with myself, mostly :))...the reality is, there are a number of people here that are completely blaming the players for us not having football. The fact is, had the players NOT decertified, we still would not be any closer to having a season. The reality is that decertification has nothing to do with getting a deal done--it's simply a tactic to avoid a stalemate. By decertifying, the players get the issue into the court system (because courts typically will not deal with union/owner conflicts).

I hope something gets worked out soon--but the fans are getting screwed over either way. Owner's will cite the fact that player costs are driving ticket prices up...not this year--but likely next.

I think the players went to the court system because they were given bad advice. This is likely the reason why we have activity now. If the court decides this, it will be years and most of the players will be out of money. Again, supporting my argument why a player run NFL would never work. These guys have all the money in the world and are already cracking after a month lock-out because they are good at hitting people, not managing money.

It is tough to support the players when several have equated the NFL to slavery and their ring leader (Drew Brees) came out with his rant recently. The owners didn't decide to go to court, the players did.

[Udogg]

The NFL made the players famous and great; the players did not make the NFL great. Without the conduit most NFL players would be flipping burgers.

You really believe this?

[jtm]

You really believe this?

Yes I do but probably a bit of an exaggeration on the flipping burgers comment. I don't think there is any argument that without the NFL, most of these players would not be making the kind of money they are making.

The NFL has provided a conduit for the great athletes to be great. Every sport has to have the infrastructure to allow them to play their sport and get compensated. Most Olympic athletes are elite athletes but most can't and don't make a living off of their particular sport. Why, because they do not have the infrastructure to showcase their talents. The NFL and most other successful sports have provided this. If you don't believe me, look at the NHL. Bad management and greedy players led to the demise of that sport.

[CarolinaCatBrigade]

Yes I do but probably a bit of an exaggeration on the flipping burgers comment. I don't think there is any argument that without the NFL, most of these players would not be making the kind of money they are making.

The NFL has provided a conduit for the great athletes to be great. Every sport has to have the infrastructure to allow them to play their sport and get compensated. Most Olympic athletes are elite athletes but most can't and don't make a living off of their particular sport. Why, because they do not have the infrastructure to showcase their talents. The NFL and most other successful sports have provided this. If you don't believe me, look at the NHL. Bad management and greedy players led to the demise of that sport.

That's like saying that the King made the army great, rather than the army making the King great. The King has no strength without his army. That line of thinking is easily defeated, no offense.

[ElIngeniero]

No... the owners didn't want to lockout, thats evident by the fact they presented two contracts to the players union which the union didn't even look at. What's more, the players have yet to even consider a counter-proposal to the owners. The players union never intended to settle for any type of compromise. They masterfully made everyone forget that the NFL did give the players union financial statements of every team before the lockout by the players union claiming that the financial statements were worthless, which is what the NFL assumed the players would have said Day 1 had they opened the books to them.

I don't think the owner's wanted a lockout (as referenced by my previous wall of text--loss of games will cost them approx 450 Million PER GAME. They presented two potentially unreasonable contracts to the union and that relieves them of all culpability? And for the record, the players HAVE discussed their terms--the two sides are about 800 million apart....I'm not even sure where this argument stems from.

Also, detailed financial statements have NEVER been provided--you are mistaken. The NFL offered it's general numbers that would simply paint an overall picture of the NFL but wouldn't provide specifics regarding individual teams. It's the teams right not to supply that info but they need to find a way to disclose enough information to show the NFLPA that they are being legit in their claims.

The entire argument is that owners claim that non-player costs (as well as player costs) have risen significantly and thus the need for the cuts. The NFLPA would likely want to see where the cost increases have occured and verify that the increases aren't in private owner jets, yachts, and general bonuses that are without merit.

[jtm]

That's like saying that the King made the army great, rather than the army making the King great. The King has no strength without his army. That line of thinking is easily defeated, no offense.

Not what I am saying. Instead, the army would not have an opportunity to be great without the King. One needs the other, but plenty of great athletes don't make millions. The NFL and the way the NFL has been run enables the players to get the exposure and money they earn.

I enjoy watching tennis, but you don't see average pro tennis players making the kind of money that average NFL players make. There is no disputing this. Teams can pay $80 million to players because the NFL has created such a great product that makes enough money to be able to pay it out.

[ElIngeniero]

Not what I am saying. Instead, the army would not have an opportunity to be great without the King. One needs the other, but plenty of great athletes don't make millions. The NFL and the way the NFL has been run enables the players to get the exposure and money they earn.

I enjoy watching tennis, but you don't see average pro tennis players making the kind of money that average NFL players make. There is no disputing this. Teams can pay $80 million to players because the NFL has created such a great product that makes enough money to be able to pay it out.

EXACTLY like Nike and the PGA tour made Tiger great?

[I am Hubby]

Hey, where did you guys go? I was enjoying the debate. And after 20 years of marriage, I am just happy to see a debate I did not already know I was going to lose.

[ElIngeniero]

Hey, where did you guys go? I was enjoying the debate. And after 20 years of marriage, I am just happy to see a debate I did not already know I was going to lose.

And if I had to guess, not nearly as hostile either.