Hurney's round 2 and 3 Draft record vs. the League.

[4Corners]

[Stone]

Not as great as I expected, Pre-Don Gregory:

DeShaun Foster - 3

Will Witherspoon -4

Bruce Nelson- 2

Mike Seidman - 2

Ricky Manning - 3

Kerry Colbert - 1.5

Travelle Wharton - 4

Eric Shelton - 1

Evan Mathis- 3

Keary Colbert

Attiyah Ellison- 1

Sounds pretty damn efficient to me, Post-Don Gregory: (cut off at 2009)

Charles Johnson - 5

Ryan Kalil - 5

James Anderson - 3

Rashad Butler - 1

Dwayne Jarrett - 2

Richard Marshall - 3

Dan Connor - 3

Charles Godfrey - 3

Everette Brown - 3

Sherrod Martin- 3

Corvey Irvin - 2

Changed for my grading scale. 5= Pro Bowl, 4= Above Avg, 3= Starter, 2= Bench, 1= Rashard Anderson

[mav1234]

James Anderson - 1

Changed for my grading scale. 5= Pro Bowl, 4= Above Avg, 3= Starter, 2= Bench, 1= Rashard Anderson

...

just because he shares his last name doesn't mean he belongs in that category :(

[Stone]

...

just because he shares his last name doesn't mean he belongs in that category :(

oops fixed

[Fiz]

Just as an addendum about Ricky Manning Jr., his career was ruined by the rule change.

After they cut the window to bump in half, he was useless.

[Fiz]

Changed for my grading scale. 5= Pro Bowl, 4= Above Avg, 3= Starter, 2= Bench, 1= Rashard Anderson

So a 1 = dealing heroin while on the team and breaking your neck on a tackling sled?

[CAVSS]

8 of 11 are starters. Looks pretty solid to me. Also please stop pretending the Pro-Bowl isn't a popularity contest. If you haven't noticed we aren't the most popular team out there. Most casual football fans can't name three people on our roster.

[bleys]

8 of 11 are starters. Looks pretty solid to me. Also please stop pretending the Pro-Bowl isn't a popularity contest. If you haven't noticed we aren't the most popular team out there. Most casual football fans can't name three people on our roster.

easy now, that doesn't make Hurney sound like an average GM...

[Stroupe-a-loop]

The 2004 Draft

Hurney's Picks:

2nd.

62nd Overall, Keary Colbert WR USC(California): Man, I thought we had a player for a minute. He broke onto the scene with 754 yards and 5 touchdowns, and left as one of the bigger jokes in town. I don't know what happened, but I would guess injuries had something to do with the massive downswing in production. In any event, he isn't considered a success.

3rd.

94th Overall, Travelle Wharton OG/T USC(South Carolina): One of the more underrated Panthers of the last few years. He was a surprising success at Left Tackle for a couple seasons (if a little overmatched by some pass rushers) and plays guard at an extremely high level. His move inside coincided with our emergence as an elite running team. Obvious success.

Around The League

Outstanding Picks (7):

2nd- Karlos Dansby Ari, Chris Snee NYG, Bob Sanders Ind(exception)

3rd-Darnell Dockett Ari, Nick Hardwick SD, Chris Cooley Was, Matt Schaub Atl

Successes (16):

2nd- Igor Olshansky SD, Daryl Smith Jac, Julius Jones Dal, Jake Grove Oak, Justin Smiley SF, Devery Henderson NO, Maduei Williams Cin, Shawntee Spencer SF, Sean Jones Cle, Stephen Peterman Dal, Sean Locklear Sea

3rd- Stuart Schwiegert Oak, Randy Starks Ten, Max Starks Pit, Bernard Berrian Chi, Landon Johnson Cin

Failures (37):

2nd- Junior Siavii KC, Teddy Lehman Det, Ricardo Colclough Pit, Ben Troupe Ten, Tatum Bell Den, Travis Laboy Ten, Tank Johnson Chi, Dontarrious Thomas Min, Keiwan Ratliff Cin, Dwan Edwards Bal, Jacob Rogers Dal, Michael Boulware Sea, Darius Watts Den, Greg Jones Jac, Antwan Odom Ten, Courtney Watson NO, Kris Wilson KC, Marquise Hill NE

3rd- Ben Hartsock Ind, Gilbert Gardner Ind, Joey Thomas GB, Donnell Washington GB, Keith Smith Det, Tim Anderson Buf, Derrick Strait NYJ, Derrick Hamilton SF, Marquis Cooper TB, Caleb Miller Cin, Devard Darling Bal, Jeremy Lesueur Den, Jorge Cordova Jac, Darrion Scott Min, Matt Ware Phi, Anthony Hargrove Stl, Rich Gardner Ten, Keyaron Fox KC, Guss Scott NE

Kickers (2):

3rd- Nate Kaeding SD, BJ Sander GB

Findings: Ohhh I remember fondly talking about how awful Rounds 2 and 3 were in 2002. Fun fact: the ghosts of all those terrible players came back to haunt me as new players in this draft. Matt Schobel returned as Ben Hartsock, Saleem Rasheed became Marquis Cooper, etc. I think we have to give Hurney a "B" for this one. He got one great player and at least his flop was productive for a season. Also don't draft kickers outside the seventh round; it's just a waste. Remember when Kaeding was the best kicker in the world until it mattered in the playoffs? Ever hear of Sander? Just say no.

2004 Draft Trivia to Impress Ladies: The Titans had five picks in rounds two and three and the only player worth a damn (Randy Starks) got good somewhere else (Miami).

[rayzor]

:lol: who's randomly picking teams? the discussion was whether or not he's done a good job in rounds 2 and 3. you said it wasn't because they only had 1 probowler. i showed that it didn't seem to show anything because very few stood out at all in that regard and those that did didn't do much better.

compared to others in the league since 2002, he hasn't done horribly. no one has done particularly well, depending on where you set the bar. you are now comparing pre hurney to pro hurney so you can "win" your argument. even that has its problems, though, cause you are still using the probowl to judge which i think isn't a good indicator because...again...i don't care what teams get players voted to the pro bowl. it's a joke. it used to mean something before the internet opened it up to each fan being allowed to vote a million times if they want. teams with bigger markets and more media hype get the most players voted in. it isn't based on talent like it used to be.

and again, you can't just list random teams and claim "well, they didn't have any pro bowlers or had 1". A lot of those teams changed GM's during the 02-09 time frame b/c of talent and other teams don't put the same kind of emphasis on building through the draft Carolina does and are bigger players in free agency.

Round 2-3 Pre Hurney (Carolina 2002-1995)

Smith - Pro Bowl

Jenkins - Pro Bowl

Grant - started 144 consecutive games in the NFL up until last season

Rucker - Pro Bowl

Terry

Wiley

Marrow

Minter

Tatem

Muhammad - Pro Bowl

Oliver

King

Now, to me....it looks pretty obvious that we haven't been drafting as good in rounds 2-3 since Hurney's arrival

[Fiz]

Also keep in mind there's a difference between drafting and development.

Keary Colbert obviously had the talent to play in the league, it's not Hurney's fault he fell off a cliff.

Ricky Manning Jr. obviously had the talent to play in the league and had one of the biggest playoff runs in team history (would you trade a third for a super bowl birth? who wouldn't), and it's not Hurney's fault Polian got the competition committee to nerf short corners.

[CRA]

:lol: who's randomly picking teams? the discussion was whether or not he's done a good job in rounds 2 and 3. you said it wasn't because they only had 1 probowler. i showed that it didn't seem to show anything because very few stood out at all in that regard and those that did didn't do much better.

compared to others in the league since 2002, he hasn't done horribly. no one has done particularly well, depending on where you set the bar. you are now comparing pre hurney to pro hurney so you can "win" your argument. even that has its problems, though, cause you are still using the probowl to judge which i think isn't a good indicator because...again...i don't care what teams get players voted to the pro bowl. it's a joke. it used to mean something before the internet opened it up to each fan being allowed to vote a million times if they want. teams with bigger markets and more media hype get the most players voted in. it isn't based on talent like it used to be.

my comment about randomly picking teams and just listing draft picks from 2002-2009 was that it doesn't mean it was the same GM doing all the drafting those years. A lot of those teams with a comparable draft success were making changes at GM b/c he wasn't doing a sufficient job. So you can compare him to teams draft history and say it is comparable....but often those teams have had turnover at GM during that time span b/c of the job being done. You can also compare him to GM's that have done a comparable job but the emphasis on those teams may not be building through the draft to the degree Carolina hopes to achieve.

I am not using just Pro Bowl players as the bar.....just one of many factors. Also, the internet vote has only swayed voting in recent years not during Hurney's entire tenure....and I am not talking about Hurney's recent drafts anyway. Steve Smith, Jenkins, Rucker, Moose were flat out fantastic selections and the fact they were Pro Bowlers just aids in pointing that out. Mainly looking at what he did his frist 5 drafts in Carolina as that is all you can legitimately judge.

[Metal_Sparty]

So if they don't build through the draft like we do, they pick crappy players because "What the hell?" And you can't really know what a GM was specifically fired for (if there is one sole reason), so this is the best way to look at it.

[CRA]

So if they don't build through the draft like we do, they pick crappy players because "What the hell?" And you can't really know what a GM was specifically fired for (if there is one sole reason), so this is the best way to look at it.

I am just saying....claiming Hurney is comparable to a team that hired and fired multiple GMs and puts a bigger emphasis on free agency doesn't make Hurney look good. That is why I say you have to be careful about just listing draft picks over a time. There ain't a magic forumula to prove things right or wrong.

I just think based on what Carolina pimps about how to build a team....Hurney needs to do better. The team Hurney has been the GM for has been carried by 2-3 round picks from prior GMs.