In this thread I compare the Panthers and Giants drafting, 2002-2009

[thefuzz]

actually, it was JR's fault we were 1st overall. If you don't see that, then I'm not sure it's worth even talking about this.

Hurney had a part, but if you don't know anything about Fox then you won't understand how Hurney had to clean up this mess.

JR played a part, as did Fox, but Hurney is still here, and JR will always be here.

I still stand by a few points when speaking of Hurney.

Refused to address the QB position for damn near 10 years in an ever increasing "QB" league.

Drafted out of fear rather than putting a system in place and sticking with it.

Traded away very valueable picks to select falling talent, and did so on a few occasions.

Drafted 2 LB's and 2 RB's in the first round in 5 seasons.

[bleys]

JR played a part, as did Fox, but Hurney is still here, and JR will always be here.

I still stand by a few points when speaking of Hurney.

Refused to address the QB position for damn near 10 years in an ever increasing "QB" league.

Drafted out of fear rather than putting a system in place and sticking with it.

Traded away very valueable picks to select falling talent, and did so on a few occasions.

Drafted 2 LB's and 2 RB's in the first round in 5 seasons.

your first sentence says nothing..

your points clearly ignore that Fox had just as much say on the issue, and we all know how stubborn Fox is..

so yeah, let's ignore that to blame Hurney because he's here and there's no one else to blame...

[bleys]

JR played a part, as did Fox, but Hurney is still here, and JR will always be here.

I still stand by a few points when speaking of Hurney.

Refused to address the QB position for damn near 10 years in an ever increasing "QB" league.

-Fox issue

Drafted out of fear rather than putting a system in place and sticking with it.

-Fox had a system in place, you couldn't be more wrong and that's why Fox is gone, because he wouldn't adapt. hence your misplaced anger in your 1st point on QB.

Traded away very valueable picks to select falling talent, and did so on a few occasions.

-misplaced hate, once again. 2008 proved a valuable move so we could see results. got the next years 1st a year prior. if you read my breakdown of Fox/Hurney tenure you'll see the thoughts behind this.. go for gold or revamp the roster. either/or were going to happen within a year's time. and it did happen.

Drafted 2 LB's and 2 RB's in the first round in 5 seasons.

-and both have turned out to be a staple of our offense and defense. however, this is the only valid point you have made, and it's not a real explosive one.

btw, your very first sentence says nothing..

your points clearly ignore that Fox had just as much say on the issue, and we all know how stubborn Fox is.. which points to your first sentence, there's a reason why Hurney is still here and why Fox is gone.

[DaCityKats]

how don't I see that when I clearly pointed it out....?

seems Hurney had to clean up all the poo and take the blame as well.. there's a major reason Fox isn't here and it's no coincidence that it all had to be cleaned up around the same time..

thats part of being a gm, because at the end of the day it's up to him to choose the talent. a coach can say what he wants but it falls back on the gm. you are saying his mistakes are fox problem?

[bleys]

thats part of being a gm, because at the end of the day it's up to him to choose the talent. a coach can say what he wants but it falls back on the gm. you are saying his mistakes are fox problem?

I'm saying Fox had just as much say in personnel. This is well documented.

Fox was a vet guy. Fox was fine with Delhomme. Hurney should have said f**k Fox, but what would that have accomplished?

this isn't a black/white issue that can be summed up so simply by armchair QBs..

matter of fact,

you are conveniently ignoring the big picture of what was going on. Fox was at the end of his tenure here. Either he get us back to back winning seasons or he's fired and we revamp the roster.

Hurney made the moves to try to force us to win, notice all those 1st round trades happened in the same time frame? never before? Fox failed to put us in the playoffs, that isn't anything new to this franchise, hence the reason JR gave him 2009 as his last (serious) year to coach.

you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.. Fox is a veteran guy. He kept Delhomme too long and failed to coach up any other prospects. Also, Delhomme shouldn't have fallen off as quickly as he did. Hindsight is very convenient for most of you all. Peppers wouldn't resign with us and so we had to tag him the 2nd time because we had to make the playoffs or start over.

feel free to ignore all of these points and act like Hurney just doesn't know wtf he's doing. which clearly has been disproven in 2 threads now.

I understand "it's the GM's job at the end of the day"... but you are talking about major chemistry issues by saying fug the coach and what he wants, while already having established he has major say in things. That's a job for JR, not Hurney.

[rayzor]

JR and hurney, right or wrong, gave fox a lot of say in who he wanted for his team. this made sense because what exactly was hurney's background prior to being a GM? they trusted fox to be able to pick who he wanted. players that they picked that weren't his ideal players got sat on the bench until his had was forced to get them starting.

through the 2008 season, fox's philosophy on personnel choices seemed to work well enough (though there were a few of us that had issues with it). heading into the 2009 season it became apparent that fox was relying too much on the older vets who were wearing down. fox wasn't looking down the road and he wasn't preparing the team to be strong in the future. he wasn't building a team...he was patching holes.

after the humiliating loss to arizona, JR offered an ultimatum that if fox couldn't get the team into the playoffs two years in a row (something that the panthers have never done) that he wanted the team to start rebuilding and he was going to do the necessary demolition not only to force the rebuilding to take place, but also create room for the new parts. when they didn't make the playoffs, richardson was true to his word and any player on their last leg who had a sizable contract was shown the door...regardless of loyalty that had been shown to them from fox or the fans. the timing for this was good because it fit well with opting out of the cba.

the way fox had been running the team along with the freedom he had to have the players he wanted wasn't working. he was given a lot of rope and he used it to tie up the team and, ultimately, hang himself. i'm not sure if it was his lack of desire to develop players and adapt to changes that came through or lack of ability to do it, but the only thing that mattered is that he wasn't the person that could take this team into the future.

hurney and richardson gave fox a lot of control. considering his early success, that didn't seem like a bad idea. when the team didn't grow...thats when it became apparent that he had too much freedom. JR and hurney fixed it. they let fox walk and brought in a HC who was known for developing talent and who brought in a staff full of teachers and ex-players who could build this team. they essentially gave him a blank slate. the draft was the first part in getting the materials needed to rebuild. FA will bring about the rest of the materials. they've also made possible a very large budget to be used which i have no doubt will be used to bring in some top notch talent.

it may not be pretty, but hurney and richardson have been doing a lot in the last couple years to help make this team a force going into the future. the problem with fox was he peaked too early and used the rest of his time here to recreate that using the same parts and same philosophy, regardless of parts falling apart and philosophies becoming antiquated.

when the new CBA comes about, this team will be in incredible shape financially and structurally to build a winning team. it may have hurt to see what it took to get the team to that point, but the results should make this team better than ever and you'll have hurney and richardson to thank for it.

[thefuzz]

bleys is your name perhaps Hurney.

You are putting a lot of blame on Fox, and maybe rightfully so, but I ain't buying it.

Hurney is over all football operations, that's his job. And he was looking at Brady and Manning piling up wins at a record breaking pace but not seeing the writing on the wall, he is either stubborn, or stupid. Neither are good attributes to have as an NFL GM.

Honestly I am loving the trading away of picks for players like Otah, E. Brown, and Edwards.....woooohoooooo god damn we have outsmarted the entire league.

As for D Will, Stew, Beason, and TD, yes they are good players, and yes I like all of them, but you don't build a championship team drafting 4/3 LB's and RB's 4 out of 5 years.

[bleys]

bleys is your name perhaps Hurney.

You are putting a lot of blame on Fox, and maybe rightfully so, but I ain't buying it.

yes, my name is Hurney. you got me, great detective work.

already explained everything to a T in response to what you just posted. not sure what is so complicated about what I've said, everything has been pretty well documented over the years.

because you want to ignore (or not buy it) is not a valid rebuttal.

maybe rayzor's words (just above) will better explain everything I've already stated.