In this thread I compare the Panthers and Giants drafting, 2002-2009

[Stroupe-a-loop]

And for the record, I think that draft, when compared head to head, is a win for the Giants but not because of Eli.

[bleys]

but when 18 million is going to one guy you are at the celling. that leaves 2 million to sign picks and FA. so how is that contradiction, when you knew you had to tag him and that he would take up 18 million?

considering we let him walk the following year, we could have bought some de help but just a year earlier. i know how defense works.

that last excuse was terrible, all in for fox last year. but that wasnt his last year.

it's a contradiction because there was 18mil sitting around... Hurney did that. There was 18 mil to f**k around with because of Hurney, a year after going to the playoffs... it would have been nice to trade Pep, if Pep walked people would still be bitching, and there was a chance that spending that 18mil on Pep with very little holes elsewhere could have sent us back to the playoffs.

Was the end result up to par? we didnt make the playoffs.. but letting Pep walk would have been the same result, so my point is.. what would you have done better? know you wouldn't have made the playoffs by letting Pep walk or taking the chance?

so spending 18mil on a player is bad.. but again, tell me what you would have done where fans wouldn't be bitching still today? Most people understand Pep was our main threat on the DLine.

Fox may not have gotten canned until after 2010, but you and I both know Fox was allowed to bounce if he had so chosen. There's absolutely no reason to point out it wasn't his last year when it can be argued it was... JR certainly took a lot away from Fox for a reason. work with me here.. I can't spell everything out. I don't have the time or energy.

and it's not a bad excuse.. it's actually a legit one. Fox and Hurney were a team. Hurney stated he was all in with Fox, over and over again. Hurney wanted to get a back to back winning season for Fox. He was down to do what he had to do. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, I'm saying that's what happened.

[CRA]

And for the record, I think that draft, when compared head to head, is a win for the Giants but not because of Eli.

and I would agree....as Eli alone doesn't impress me. But the Giants get that one.

Giants get that one b/c of what they did in rounds 2-7 vs. Carolina. The guys they drafted in those rounds played bigger roles. Goes back to my arguement, 2-7 is how you evaluate a GM (especially on teams who rely heavily on the draft to build their team).

[bleys]

but when 18 million is going to one guy you are at the celling. that leaves 2 million to sign picks and FA. so how is that contradiction, when you knew you had to tag him and that he would take up 18 million?

considering we let him walk the following year, we could have bought some de help but just a year earlier. i know how defense works.

that last excuse was terrible, all in for fox last year. but that wasnt his last year.

I'm saying there was 18 mil sitting around and it's a contradiction to say facetiously "I thought Hurney was a good cap specialist".. we had just went to the playoffs and had that much room to spare.

could we have let Pep walk? sure.. and more than likely go into the season knowing we wouldn't repeat without a DLine, in turn pressuring our secondary, in turn forcing our offense to score more points.. with an offensive coordinator who couldn't figure out how to fix blocking schemes playing the Eagles.. They made Davidson look like a fool. Still calling for routes that take time to develop as the Eagles stack one side of the line.

Hurney gambled and it didn't pay off. At that point, you had 1 season to put all your cards on the table or revamp the entire roster. Hurney at least tried. And with that said, it was obvious Fox wasn't going to get us but so far. JR saw this. Fans saw this. Hurney did what he had available to him.

there were no other Peppers to sign and Pep wasn't about to resign to help this team out. So he tagged Pep for one more year, found cap space (which he didn't have, notice a trend? Hurney is pretty good with the cap), and tried to force us to win a back to back season.

Hurney said over and over that Fox and he were a partnership. You may find it a terrible excuse, but Hurney went all in with Fox. If Fox didn't win in '09, that was his last year JR allowed. Work with me here: Fox did last one more year. However, do you seriously think that means anything when Fox's control was taken away (evidenced by the draft and the older vets getting released)...

So yes, Fox coached 1 more year, but pointing that out is trivial..

there is a bigger picture I'm trying to explain and that is stack your chips in the roster we had that went to the playoffs the year before or revamp the entire team? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not going to hate on that. It's a solid bet considering the results the year prior.

[Stroupe-a-loop]

and I would agree....as Eli alone doesn't impress me. But the Giants get that one.

Giants get that one b/c of what they did in rounds 2-7 vs. Carolina. The guys they drafted in those rounds played bigger roles. Goes back to my arguement, 2-7 is how you evaluate a GM (especially on teams who rely heavily on the draft to build their team).

Right, but in Fiz's defense, I think the Giants' overall grade for that draft suffers because they traded away the better quarterback and high draft picks for Manning. They knew they were going to get one of the top quarterbacks and evaluated them wrong, and I think that is a major strike against that draft for the Giants. You never know how rounds 2-7 seven are going to fall, so some disappointments there can be explained.

[CRA]

Right, but in Fiz's defense, I think the Giants' overall grade for that draft suffers because they traded away the better quarterback and high draft picks for Manning. They knew they were going to get one of the top quarterbacks and evaluated them wrong, and I think that is a major strike against that draft for the Giants. You never know how rounds 2-7 seven are going to fall, so some disappointments there can be explained.

I will agree, they lost some as Rivers > Eli but that really is another topic. Eli is what they got with the pick and outside of his rookie year the Giants have not had a single losing season.

I agree, you can't expect 2-7 not to have flops. I just think Hurney has missed in rounds 2-7 at a higher rate than a lot of teams. Rounds 2-3 especially...Carolina pimping the line they emphasize building through the draft means Hurney should be looked at hard in rounds 2-7.

[Stroupe-a-loop]

I will agree, they lost some as Rivers > Eli but that really is another topic. Eli is what they got with the pick and outside of his rookie year the Giants have not hand a single losing season.

I agree, you can't expect 2-7 not to have flops. I just think Hurney has missed in rounds 2-7 at a higher rate than a lot of teams. Rounds 2-3 especially...Carolina pimping the line they emphasize building through the draft means Hurney should be looked at hard in rounds 2-7.

That is a fair point, and that seems to be the biggest criticism of Hurney: that he regularly misses in rounds 2 and 3, especially round 2. Maybe this necessitates the construction of another thread looking into it. And as I have nothing to do today and my PS3 is broken, I feel it is up to me. AWAY!

[thefuzz]

And as for the FA stuff.....What wizardy has he pulled?

Anyone?

How much did Wahle and Lucas count against the cap after they were done playing here?

How awesome was the Johnson and Johnson experiment?

I know that many of you love Hurney, but god damn, between Otah, EB, Edwards, and going 2-14 I think that many of you are delusional.

[bleys]

Wahle was a great pickup, but got hurt and wasn't the same since. That also applies to Justin Hartwig.

Keyshawn Johnson was the 1st legit #2 option we had since Colbert's houdini act.. Which brings me to Ricky Proehl, good pick up by Hurney.

Ken Lucas put us in the NFC Championship and had a really good 2005 season.

Kemoeatu did his job very well. despite what a few fans would like to say.

Keydrick Vincent was merely camp fodder and turned out to be a diamond in the rough..

so with those guys I mentioned, let me put this in perspective... yes, I would have loved to see a WR brought in at some point to be a true #1 (post 2007).. As a #2 Keyshawn did his job. But after he left, we had nothing, before he showed up, we had nothing.

However, I thoroughly believe you can put a lot of that blame on Fox. He seemed to disregard the position for years.

2003, went to the SB.. 2004, we started off bad but got hot as poo at the end.. 2005, we brought in a few pieces and went to the NFC Championship. At this point, I'm curious if Fox didn't get complacent or more hard headed since his "system" was proven.

we then went mediocre as hell. 2006, brought in a WR (Johnson) and had the lineup of a SB contender. however, Fox can't seem to get over the hump.

2007, perhaps 2006 was a fluke, let's get back on the bull and ride. but then we had 4 different starters at QB, and that's a lot of inconsistency at the most important position in sports.

poo was bad, and they knew they had to make some moves... we did that in '08 and made the playoffs again.. Obviously they felt we had to solidify the line and get back to smashmouth football. Again, Fox's system.

2009, the key ingredients lost their mojo (Delhomme) and the team wasn't clicking like in the past.

so yes, we could have went Redskins, but based on the 1st part of their tenure, there wasn't much reason to do so.

we can bitch about the FA acquisitions, but I don't see what all the fuss is over unless we want to bitch about not picking up Bolden or Marshall at WR..

Vick and Cutler wasn't something I give 2 shits about having on my team. and I feel like Newton (if he continues as it appears) will be a better prospect than either.

DT would have been nice, but was it really worth dumping what we had onto a new player, and who? we had a space eater and Lewis was a good backup... he just couldn't cut it as a starter in the same fashion..

which is another one I'd like to bring up.. Guys like Brayton and Lewis played their role very well. Brayton at one point looked just as athletic as Peppers, but I'm not sure what happened in 2010.. Lewis would have been great to have if we could have picked up a 3 down DT.

I think Fox needs to be considered when thinking of who we have brought in and why...

[DaCityKats]

I'm saying there was 18 mil sitting around and it's a contradiction to say facetiously "I thought Hurney was a good cap specialist".. we had just went to the playoffs and had that much room to spare.

could we have let Pep walk? sure.. and more than likely go into the season knowing we wouldn't repeat without a DLine, in turn pressuring our secondary, in turn forcing our offense to score more points.. with an offensive coordinator who couldn't figure out how to fix blocking schemes playing the Eagles.. They made Davidson look like a fool. Still calling for routes that take time to develop as the Eagles stack one side of the line.

Hurney gambled and it didn't pay off. At that point, you had 1 season to put all your cards on the table or revamp the entire roster. Hurney at least tried. And with that said, it was obvious Fox wasn't going to get us but so far. JR saw this. Fans saw this. Hurney did what he had available to him.

there were no other Peppers to sign and Pep wasn't about to resign to help this team out. So he tagged Pep for one more year, found cap space (which he didn't have, notice a trend? Hurney is pretty good with the cap), and tried to force us to win a back to back season.

Hurney said over and over that Fox and he were a partnership. You may find it a terrible excuse, but Hurney went all in with Fox. If Fox didn't win in '09, that was his last year JR allowed. Work with me here: Fox did last one more year. However, do you seriously think that means anything when Fox's control was taken away (evidenced by the draft and the older vets getting released)...

So yes, Fox coached 1 more year, but pointing that out is trivial..

there is a bigger picture I'm trying to explain and that is stack your chips in the roster we had that went to the playoffs the year before or revamp the entire team? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not going to hate on that. It's a solid bet considering the results the year prior.

we do not do big splashes in FA so i doubt we would have looked at any one close to pep. i see the bigger picture but at that same time you dont see what some of us are saying. yeah we realize the things he had to do like extending delhomme, keeping pep for an extra year, trading away 1st rounders but those things were huge gambles that did not work.

[bleys]

we do not do big splashes in FA so i doubt we would have looked at any one close to pep. i see the bigger picture but at that same time you dont see what some of us are saying. yeah we realize the things he had to do like extending delhomme, keeping pep for an extra year, trading away 1st rounders but those things were huge gambles that did not work.

how don't I see that when I clearly pointed it out....?

seems Hurney had to clean up all the poo and take the blame as well.. there's a major reason Fox isn't here and it's no coincidence that it all had to be cleaned up around the same time..

[thefuzz]

how don't I see that when I clearly pointed it out....?

seems Hurney had to clean up all the poo and take the blame as well.. there's a major reason Fox isn't here and it's no coincidence that it all had to be cleaned up around the same time..

Do you not understand that Hurney is responsible for all of this "poo"?

It's his fault he was cleaning, and we picked 1st overall this year.

[bleys]

Do you not understand that Hurney is responsible for all of this "poo"?

It's his fault he was cleaning, and we picked 1st overall this year.

actually, it was JR's fault we were 1st overall. If you don't see that, then I'm wasting my breath even thinking we are having a rational discussion.

Hurney had a part, but if you don't know anything about Fox then you won't understand how Hurney had to clean up this mess.

[bleys]

Do you not understand that Hurney is responsible for all of this "poo"?

It's his fault he was cleaning, and we picked 1st overall this year.

actually, it was JR's fault we were 1st overall. If you don't see that, then I'm wasting my breath even thinking we are having a rational discussion.

Hurney had a part, but if you don't know anything about Fox then you won't understand how Hurney had to clean up this mess.