In this thread I compare the Panthers and Giants drafting, 2002-2009

[Fiz]

I am doing this because, well, I'm drunk and I said I would. Keep in mind that during this stretch, the Panthers drastically changed their drafting strategy, and the Giants changed their GM (Accorsi to Reese).

We're also assuming that coaching has nothing to do with it. that said, I am going to include Jovan Haye as a good draft pick for the Panthers. I'm also going to take the liberty of including incompletes, IE someone like Ryne Robinson who got hurt before he could develop.

The argument posed by forums poster and noted bestiality enthusiast CRA is that Hurney is a howler after the first round. I disagree.

At the time of this writing I'm not quite sure how this will turn out!

also here are my sources for this, if you wanna open them up and play along at home

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Panthers_draft_history#2002_draft

http://www.databasefootball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=NYG&lg=NFL

2002

Hurney nailed the fug out of this draft, taking Peppers, Foster, Witherspoon, and Wesley in the first four rounds. Foster was a great player that couldn't stay healthy, though he still managed to be the team's second leading receiver in 2005. After Davis was finally taken behind the shed, Fox asked him to bulk up, and it ruined him. Wesley was a special teams ace for years, something that can't be discounted, and he almost murdered a tampa bay buccaneer which we can all cheer for.

In New York, Accorsi took Shockey, the only player from that draft you've heard of. Second round pick Tim Carter was traded to the Browns for Reuben fuging Droughns. A bad draft for the Giants.

ADVANTAGE: PANTHERS

2003

Not a really great draft for the Panthers. Gross is obviously Jordan Gross, but Bruce Nelson in the 2nd had a degenerative knee condition the training staff didn't catch and never played. Seidman in the 3rd was supposed to be the Tight End of The Future and never developed. Ricky Manning Jr. in the 3rd was absolutely instrumental in the Panthers super bowl run, and they do not make the game if not for his interception against the Rams. Morehead and Branch were basically good depth and special teams guys.

Over in New York, Accorsi had a good draft. William Joseph was pretty meh, but Omenyura in the 2nd is a stud, Shiancoe in the 3rd is a very good player for the Vikings. I've barely heard of anyone else they drafted from the 4th on. David Tyree is a middling player from the 6th, but he did have one of the greatest plays in NFL history. They drafted two good players in 2003.

ADVANTAGE: Push

2004

the Panthers traded up to get Gamble, a top ten corner in the league. Colbert was drafted in the 2nd, and after putting up the best year among rookies in the NFL he fell apart. I'm not putting that on Hurney. Obviously something went wrong in his development, but the talent was clearly there. I suspect it had something to do with Moose leaving and Smith coming back but we'll never know for sure. Travelle Wharton was a bad tackle in the 3rd but is a VERY good guard, though he's overpaid. Carter, Tufts, and Gaines in the 5th, 6th, and 7th respectively were nobodies.

This was a rather big draft for the Giants. They traded Phillip Rivers and a host of other picks, including a 2005 first rounder, for Eli. Though Eli has won a superbowl, it's hard to say he's been a better player that Rivers. Chris Snee has been a stud from the 2nd, Reggie Torbor in the 4th was a nobody, and Gibril Wilson in the 5th was a very good player for them before he went and died in Oakland. the 6th and 2 7th picks were nobodies.

ADVANTAGE: This really depends on how you view the Eli trade and I leave that to the discretion of the reader. I'd say either slight advantage to the Panthers or a draw.

2005

Hurney's worst trade by far. They took Davis in the first, Hangartner in the 5th, and Haye in the 6th (a good player for another team, obviously the talent was there.) Everyone else was a howler. Shelton got hit once in training camp and decided he didn't want to play football anymore and would later sue the league. Everyone else was poo. I don't want to think about this. Still, the Panthers managed to draft THREE NFL STARTERS. You do that every year, you'll be fine.

Unfortunately the Giants drafted Corey Webster in the 2nd, Justin Tuck in the 3rd, and Brandon Jacobs in the 4th. Also some asshole I've never heard of.

Advantage: Giants though that draft isn't as lopsided as it seems.

2006

the Panthers drafted the best running back in franchise history in the first and a very good CB in the 2nd in Marshall. Don't let last year fool you. Marshall's Panthers career (which I think is over) is far more good than bad, and he should have been starting since 2008. James Anderson in the 3rd was clearly a good player, but Rashard butler in the same round was a nobody. They took Nate Salley in the 4th, who is still a good special teams player, though no one here is going to accept that it's a good job getting a good special teams player in the 4th. Jeff King in the 5th is a VERY GOOD PLAYER and I will fight anyone that says otherwise. McClover and Montgomery in the 7th were busts.

This draft was terrible for the Giants. Kiwanuka has been mostly underwhelming from the first. Sinorice Moss from the 2nd has been awful. Wilkinson in the third was a nobody, but Barry Cofield in the 4th was quite a good player. Everyone else is a dog.

Advantage: Panthers

2007

The best draft in Panthers history. With the exception of Jarrett in the 2nd and Robinson (injury) in the 4th, every player from this draft is excelling or contributing. Beason, Kalil in the 2nd, and Johnson in the third are all great. Rosario in the 5th was a good special teamer with a flare for the dramatic, Shaw and Wilson were/are special teams regulars.

Unfortunately the Giants blew this draft up too. Ross and Smith from the 1st and 2nd are both starters and good. Alford is one of their 100 rotational defensive ends. DeOssie from the 4th is their long snapper (does this count as a good pick?) Kevin Boss is a Very Good Tight End, and they grabbed Ahmad Bradshaw in the 7th.

Advantage: ever so slightly Carolina. They all got a lot of starters, but Beason and Kalil are 1 and 2 at their respective positions

2008

Oh this is interesting. The Panthers took two players in the first between Otah and Stewart that were instrumental in their playoff run. It was costly however, but I can't imagine anyone would undo this draft. Charles Godfrey in the 3rd was a pro bowler last year. While he is technically a backup in Carolina, Dan Connor in the third needs to be starting, as he showed last year. 5th, 6th, and first of the 7th were gary barnidge, Nick Hayden and Hilee Taylor. Barnidge and Taylor are nobodies. Hayden is a useful rotational guy but can't start. there were 2 more picks in the 7th. Bernardeau has been up and down, but Geoff Schwartz is a damn fine player and will be a starter this year. a Very Good Draft.

Kenny Phillips in the first is an okay player for the Giants. I know a lot of fans that say the system doesn't favor him, and that might be true for all I know. Terrell Thomas in the 2nd blows. Manningham in the 3rd has turned into a good receiver. Kehl in the 4th is a rotational guy, but Goff in the 5th started every game last year at guard. Andrew Woodson (lol) and Robert Henderson in the 6th were nobodies.

Advantage: Panthers by a damn sight

From here on it's kinda hard to judge the players.

2009

Ugh, the Panthers drafted Brown and traded a first to do it. He's been terrible and I doubt he actually has a position in the NFL. You have to keep in mind though the Panthers didn't know what Peppers was going to do and felt they were in position to make a deep run into the playoffs. they overpaid for insurance. The early returns on Sherrod Martin in the 2nd have been VERY promising. Corvey Irvin was terrible in the 3rd and I said as much when he was drafted. Mike Goodson in the 4th is a good change of pace back, he just needs to learn to hang on to the football. Fiammetta in the 4th replaced a Panthers legend and hasn't lived up to it. I know buckner has talked some poo about him. Duke Robinson from the 5th is a fat fug, but they got their nickel back of the future in the 7th with Captain, and that's important considering 48% of defensive snaps last year were from the nickel.

The Giants grabbed Hakeem Nicks in the first, and he's legit as hell. Sintim was drafted in the 2nd and hasn't done much. It's not fair to judge him yet though. Likewise with the rest of their draft.

Advantage: Giants, if only because I'd trade our entire draft that year for Hakeem Nicks

I'm not going to do the 2010 draft because that's fuging ridiculous after one season.

Conclusion I'd love if someone else would go through and judge, by round, if a player was good or not. I'm not going to do that right now. Just eye balling it I'd give the advantage to Hurney. 3 of the best posters on Somethingawful are Giants fans so I know a fair bit about them.

A lot of this depends on how you judge the Eli trade. I think they gave away picks to get an inferior QB, and that's a serious debacle, far worse than taking a flier on Clausen, for example.

anyway fug you all I'm going to the Braves game.

[CBDellinger]

Bulking up didnt ruin Foster... His inability to hold onto the football did. He carried the ball like a loaf of bread, something that he had done since college.

Nice comparison tho. Interesting thoughts on our drafting vs another team that has had more recent success.

[Kurb]

Fiammetta in the 4th replaced a Panthers legend and hasn't lived up to it.

Honestly I don't think anyone could live up to Hoov in Panther Fan's eyes. First half of last year Fiammetta was leveling people. As the season got worse it was harder to see him do anything special. That said he has much more physical ability (IMO) that Hoov ever did and if he can keep improving he will be an exceptional FB.

[HuddleLikeDeshaunFoster]

Foster was ALWAYS garbage. Great athlete, not a good NFL player. He had a couple awesome runs in the playoffs but as you mentioned, David Tyree had a great play once.

You are inherently biased as a Panthers fan which obviously skews this comparison. If a Giants fan does this analysis they completely gloss over Jovan Haye who barely played for us and is a good (but low exposure) player for the Titans. They see Ryne Robinson and say "who the f is that?"

As an example, you totally skipped over that the Giants took Kevin Walter with their last pick in 2003. They cut him in camp but he eventually turned out to be a solid receiver with the Texans.

[Fiz]

Yeah that's my bad I didn't realize it was THAT Kevin Walter.

[Fiz]

Also foster was not, in fact, always garbage, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[HuddleLikeDeshaunFoster]

Here is my evaluation of those drafts. I'm going to rate them separately to avoid fudging an opinion for a comparison

2002 Giants:

Shockey - Good player for his position but he better be if you're blowing a pick on a TE at 14. Not an ideal locker room guy. Legacy tarnished in NY because they won a SB the year he got hurt with Kevin Boss. Got punked in a song by Wale. Decent player in New Orleans where he got a ring. Replaced by an albino basketball player. As a player, I'd give the pick a 7/10. Value to the Giants is more of a 6

Timothy Carter - I actually remember this guy making some catches for the Giants. Still, his career line reads like a good year for a starting WR. Bad pick in the 2nd round. Reuben Droughns isn't a worse RB than Deshaun Foster, for instance, but he was finished when he was traded for this guy. 2/10

Jeff Hatch - OT from a I-AA school in the 3rd round that played in 4 career games? Awful pick 1/10

Nick Griesen - 5th round LB that contributed on special teams and filled in on spot duty through his rookie contract, picked up some sacks and FFs. Comparison for us is probably Adam Seward. Currently playing for the Omaha Nighthawks. Considering the round, 5/10

Mallard - 6th round scrub LB who looks like mainly played ST for a couple years. 2/10

Daryl Jones - WR, career 8 rec 90 yards lol. 7th round so whatever 1/10

Quincy Monk - another scrub special teamer who lasted 2 years at the end of the roster. 2/10

2003:

Will Joseph - Played out his rookie contract with the Giants and got a ring for the SB (even though he was on IR at the time). Wasn't a real impact player but a rotational DT who played. At the end of the first round you can't really call him a bust but he's close. Signed with the Raiders in '08 3.5/10

Osi - Home run. No explanation needed. 9.5/10

Shiancoe - Has been a pretty decent TE for the Vikings but he was a bit player on the Giants which isn't what you want out of a 3rd rounder (the last round you can really expect something imo). 4/10 pick, 6-7/10 player

Barbers - 4th round CB with 10 careers tackles (ST i assume). 1/10

David Diehl - Great pick for a 5th rounder. Started every game as a rookie, played RT on the SB team, made a Pro Bowl (lol) and is still starting for them (LT now?). 9/10

skipping ponder and walker cuz whatever. think walker was a fringe player for a couple years but who cares. 1/10 picks in the 6th

Tyree - The Catch aside, he was a great ST player for them for a long time. Made the pro bowl a few times as the ST guy IIRC. Basically, a millionaire's Karl Hankton who performed a miracle in the biggest moment of his life. 8/10

skipping wayne and lucier 1/10

Walter - Already mentioned him in post above. Turned out a decent WR but Giants cut him in TC so they dont get much credit imo. For a 7th it's whatever though 1/10

fug this is taking forever. i'll at least finish up the giants later but there's the first two drafts for now

[pstall]

nice work fiz. i had done some comparing and contrasts of our drafts the last 7 years a few days ago. can't find the site i was using.

they had an excellent spreadsheet you could tab thru and rank teams vs others vs years and or position.

hope i can find it since im not on my reg lap top.

[CRA]

Basically from your own summary.....it can be a argued the Giants were better in 03, 04, 05, 07, 08, 09. I mean if a drunk Panther fan is calling them pushes or ever so slight Panther edges......it means it could go either way.

[Fiz]

I put all that effort in and that's the response I get?

Go to hell

[Lumps]

fug the giants

[HuddleLikeDeshaunFoster]

alright here's the rest of the giants:

2004:

Eli trade - Ok, obviously if you look at the players alone it looks like a raw deal. But you can't do that. The Jets took Revis with the pick we traded out of the year we took Beason. Does Hurney take blame for that? No, cuz we were just going to take Beason at 14 if we couldnt trade down. Yet, even if you remove Merriroids/Kaeding/etc, Rivers is still objectively a better QB than Eli (anyone who disagrees GTFO). However, there are a number of extenuating circumstances. First, Rivers had a number of questions coming out of college. His throwing motion is the one everyone knows about but there were also legitimate concerns about how well his arm strength would play in New York and he also wasn't considered a top 10 pick until he absolutely obliterated everyone at the Senior Bowl. You can say that the Giants FO should've seen through those BS knocks on Rivers and instead focused on his awesome abilities and the fact that he shattered college passing records while Eli is a weak copy of his brother but it's a lot easier to do that in hindsight. Ultimately, the Giants traded up to get their franchise QB and the guy that was considered the crown jewel of the class. He hasn't been exceptional but he's been a solid QB and they won a Super Bowl with him. If Jake Locker ends up being better than Cam Newton but Newton is still pretty damn good are you going to be pissed? I won't. I give this whole thing an 8/10 (bumped a point for what was at stake - if Cam turns into an 8/10 QB I'd give the pick a 9/10 at least considering the circumstances) for the Giants and a 10/10 for the Chargers

Snee - Great, great player but still ultimately an interior OL drafted at the start of the 2nd round. I'll give it an 8/10 solely for the longevity.

Torbor - Stuck around on the team for a while but wasn't very good. 4.1 is basically a 3rd rounder, too. 2.5/10

Gibril Wilson - Thought this guy was pretty solid for them and he was on the SB team. Then they were wise enough to let him go in FA before he turned into a lemon (I'm guessing his flaws were covered well by the coaching staff). Still, great pick for a 5th. 7/10

taylor, strojny, hilton - whatever, 1/10

2005:

Webster - Long term starter in the 2nd. Real good pick and what most of us were hoping Marshall would become. 8/10

Tuck - Home run. If a DE runs a 4.6 at the combine it's probably a good idea to take him, huh? 10/10

Jacobs - We all know who he is. Even at his peak I thought he was a tad overrated but still a great pick up in the 4th. 9/10

Eric Moore - played a little for them his rookie year then was released. Has become a journeyman since but is still in the league. 2/10

2006:

Kiwanuka - Nice pick because they got a good player at the end of the first. I'd give them a bonus point for throwing it in the face of all the draft morons out there for taking him when they were considered loaded at DE but since his career has stalled out a bit thanks to being stuck behind Osi and Tuck on the depth chart (not to mention that idiotic SLB experiment) I'm holding it back. 7/10

Sinorice Moss - I guess they figured it worked with Eli, why not here? Total bust. 1/10

Gerris Wilkinson - Dude was a depth/ST guy for a few years before starting at LB about half a year then blew out his knee. Still on their roster but you'd want a bit more out of a 3rd. 4/10

Barry Cofield - Good rotational DT but it looks like they might let him walk in FA. Bonus point for the taser celebration. 7/10

last 3 guys - whatever 1/10

2007:

Ross - good starter at CB. 8/10

The Fake Steve Smith - Very good player. Bonus point for not being Dwayne Jarrett. 9/10

Jay Alford - Seemed to be a decent back up DT with potential before he blew out his knee. Will always have

moment. 5/10

Zak DeOssie - Long snapper who is a legit back up LB. Apparently made a couple pro bowls as a utility player. Whatever. 6/10

Kevin Boss - Was a huge part of the Super Bowl run. Career has sputtered a little bit since due to injury I believe. Even if he retires tomorrow a good contribution for a 5th. 7/10

koets - scrub but still on team 2/10

Michael Johnson - I don't think he's a good player but he contributed during the SB year and started a season. That's damn good for a 7th rounder. 7/10

Ahmad Bradshaw - Great pick for what was basically a UDFA. 9.5/10

2008:

Kenny Phillips - Overrated prospect who fell to them. Didn't start his rookie year but played a lot and looked like he was about to settle in as a starter his second year before injuries ruined him. Came back last year and was solid if unspectacular. Not sure how to grade this. 6? 7? Could end up much higher if he blossoms to his supposed potential too

Terrell Thomas - Starting CB but he's going to be replaced soon imo. 5-6/10

Manningham - One of 6000 WRs they have who can be good but is inconsistent. Didn't realize he put up 900 and 9 last year. 7/10 I guess.

Kehl - LB who played some for them (when Wilkinson got hurt actually, I think) but they cut last year. 4/10

Goff - Started last year but I have no clue if he's any good. At least a 6 considering he's a 5th rounder, if he's good could rise to 8 or higher

Woodson - Total bust but they took him on a flier like we did with Pike. Unlike us, they actually had a starting QB.

Henderson - literally dont care enough to look him up

not going to bother with the last 2 drafts since that one was getting hard to evaluate already. quick scan shows two great first rounders in Nicks and Pierre-Paul and some linemen that I think contribute, LOL they took Rhett Bomar and Matt Dodge was one of the worst punters in the NFL last year

[MHS831]

I put all that effort in and that's the response I get?

Go to hell

This thread sucks. Feel better?

[HuddleLikeDeshaunFoster]

ok f it i'll burn through the panthers. not as much description since most here know these guys

2002:

Peppers - 9/10. Point deducted for the clusterf that was him leaving and getting an STD or whatever in 2007

Foster - He was honestly never a good RB. Fumble prone and terrible at getting positive yardage consistently. Basically the NFL equivalent of a guard who chucks a ton and gets his points but shoots like 35%. Still, the playoff runs were awesome and he wasn't a total bust. 4/10

Witherspoon - Perhaps a little overrated in the Panther fanbase b/c of the Morgan debacle. Regardless, we should've kept him over Dan and his concussions. 7/10

Wesley - Solid player as a back up DB and a ST guy. 6/10 since he was almost a 3rd rounder

Fasani - 0/10 in honor of 0.0 QB rating game

I don't recognize any of the names left in 02. Wow

2003:

Gross - An RT at 8 overall is a bit of a disappointment...but he was a good RT, and now he's at LT. I think he's been weaker at LT and the contract could be a problem if he continues to regress but he's still been a good player for us for a long time. Bonus .5 for getting him in before the Vikings. 8/10

Nelson - total bust 1/10

Seidman - garbage 2/10

Ricky Manning Jr - 9/10 pick solely for the SB run. Too bad the rule changes basically ruined his career. At least we let him go when that went down

Branch - decent player who was around for a while but injuries kept popping up 5.5/10

Kindal Moorehead - Remember some impact plays out of this guy as a rotational player. Not bad for a 5th. 6/10

Walter Young and Casey Moore - 1/10

2004:

Gamble - Good corner who is criticized too much. Not a great, impact player like Fiz is trying to sell him. Still, not bad considering he was basically an ATH in college and he was a late first. 7.5/10

Colbert - Weird that he barely matched his first season over the rest of his career but still a bust all considering. 3/10

Wharton - 7.5/10 given pick and how long he's been around/played LT/etc

Carter - Not a bad pick to take a risk on a track guy with size in the 4th. Never panned out, though. 3.5/10

Tufts - back up/ST guy for a couple years 2/10

Gaines - Another TE pick failure but he wasn't terrible and was taken in the 7th 4/10

2005:

Davis - Poorly handled and injuries aside he's a good player when he's on the field. Still, at 14 we got a good OLB in a 4-3 for about 3 years? 7/10 player (or better) but the other issues drop it down to a 6/10 pick

Shelton - worst pick yet 0/10

Mathis - guy was talented and contributed as depth but didn't click with our coaching staff. 4/10

Ellison - lol we cut a 3rd rounder in camp 0/10

LeFors - At least his story was interesting 1/10

Seward - showed potential but never developed it 5/10

Hangartner - good depth player for a 5th but he went elsewhere after his rookie contract 6/10

Emanuel - think we cut this guy then he started a year with the 49ers 1/10

Haye - Developed into a good player but he was buried on the depth chart here and was eventually cut 2/10

Berger - never played for us 1/10

2006:

DeAngelo - Great player, one of the best RBs in the game. We're really lucky the Pats took that POS Maroney. Hurney gets credit for taking him but I'm docking half a point for all the surrounding issues that caused us not to get as much as we could have out of him (Foster, slight recurring injuries, was picking Stewart really that smart when we had him?, is he done with us now, etc) 8.5/10

Marshall - wtf happened to him? I have no idea how to grade this pick so I'll take the cheap way out and go right down the middle 5/10

Anderson - looked like org filler for a while but was pretty damn good last year 6.5/10 with potential to move up if he comes back

Butler - bust, really bad pick since he was considered raw (AKA he sucked but had good "tools") and we took him in the 3rd then cut him after a year 1/10

Salley - couldn't cut it as a safety but made some big hits as a ST guy. 4/10

Jeff King - not a great player but a starter nonetheless and is reliable. Would look a lot better as #2 guy. Not bad for a 5th rounder 7/10

Montgomery - 1/10

McClover - showed some potential but never fulfilled it, not a total waste since the thought process that led to us taking him probably also contributed to the Charles Johnson pick 2/10

2007:

Beason - Huge pick for us as he's a great player and a leader. 9/10 pick, 10/10 if you include the trade

Jarrett - the Clausen of WR 2/10

Kalil - great player but we need to keep him. 7/10 for now but if he stays with us for a second contract it moves to 8 and if he has Jeff Saturday longevity its a 9.5

Charles Johnson - another excellent pick. 8/10

Ryne - I know you liked him Fiz, I actually did too but ultimately he never showed anything in real games (he wasn't a good PR but had potential as a slot imo) before the injury. 2/10

Rosario - Unfulfilled potential but he's still had those flashes and that's not bad for a 5th. 5/10

Shaw - cut after a year 1/10

CJ Wilson - like him but he hasnt shown much on the field 2/10

2008:

Stewart - Lots of complications here. 13th overall, we already had D-Will, the foot injury and so on. Still, he's a damn good player and if D-Will walks will be our starter for the forseeable future. 7/10

Otah - Monster run blocker, needs work on pass blocking and needs to stop getting ****ing injured. 6/10 for now but has the potential to be much more

Godfrey - Even though I'm insanely frustrated with how he plays he is very physically gifted and has the ability to develop into a good player. Not confident he will, but whatever 5/10

Connor - good value pick but being loaded at one position doesnt help when a 2-14 team has holes everywhere else 6/10

Barnidge - needs to show something this year 3/10

Hayden - ideally we have enough talent that he isn't on the roster, but he did improve slightly last year 3/10

Taylor - whatever 1/10

Schwartz - 6/10 considering round

Bernandeu - He's played a lot for a 7th rounder but hasn't looked very good doing it 3.5/10

Brown looks bad but still has a little time left to prove otherwise, Martin could develop into a solid player, Irvin is a bust and wont make the roster this year, Goodson is a good pick for where he went, Fiammetta could be easily replaced, Duke is a bust and Captain was a good pick, probably an 8/10 for the 7th round

'10 and '11 look promising if you ignore Clausen