An NFL GM who's had a bad record in the second round...

[Stumpy]

I think the better question is, is how many pro bowlers has he drafted or brought in? If you just want everyday starters, that's not what's going to help you win games in the playoffs against more talented teams.

How about this former GM, Ernie Accorsi

He drafted Jeremy Shockey 1st round

Kevin Walter 7th round

Osi Umenyiora 2nd round

Chris Snee 2nd round

Justin Tuck 2nd round

Brandon Jacobs 3rd round

Barry Cofield 4th round

How about his successor, Jerry Reese

Aaron Ross 1st round

Steve Smith 2nd round

Kevin Boss 5th round

Ahmad Bradshaw 7th round - All the same draft ^^^

Kenny Phillips 1st round

Mario Manningham 3rd round

Hakeem Nicks 1st round

Pro Bowlers:

Julius Peppers - 1st round

Jordan Gross - 1st round

Deangelo Williams - 1st round

Ryan Kalil - 2nd round

Jon Beason - 1st round

Stephen Davis - Free Agent

Mike Wahle - Free Agent

Jake Delhomme - Free Agent

[Ohio]

ok, Kalil and Beason made it this year do to injury replacements.

And almost every guy I named from the Giants are still playing for them, 4 of the guys you named aren't even playing for Carolina.

And bragging about Jake making the pro bowl is like the Browns bragging that Derek Anderson did 1 year. Now look where they are.

It's part of a GM's job to keep good players on the team.

[Stumpy]

ok, Kalil and Beason made it this year do to injury replacements.

And almost every guy I named from the Giants are still playing for them, 4 of the guys you named aren't even playing for Carolina.

And bragging about Jake making the pro bowl is like the Browns bragging that Derek Anderson did 1 year. Now look where they are.

It's part of a GM's job to keep good players on the team.

Kalil has been twice (both as alternates) Beason has been 3x (twice as an alternate) and has been voted all-pro 2x.

So let's look at Accosi's guys from the Giants...

Jeremy Shockey - 4 Pro Bowls - 1 All Pro - On his third team

Kevin Walter - 0 Pro Bowls - 0 All Pros (whoops) - cut during training camp

Osi Umenyiora - 2 Pro Bowls - 2 All Pros - Still with team

Chris Snee - 3 Pro Bowls (1 as Alternate) - 3 All Pros - Still with team

Justin Tuck - 2 Pro Bowls (1 as Alternate) - 2 All Pros - Still with team

Brandon Jacobs - 0 Pro Bowls - 0 All Pros (whoops) - Still with team

Barry Cofield - 0 Pro Bowls - 0 All Pros (whoops) - Still with team

And for Reese's Giants...

Aaron Ross - 0 Pro Bowls - 0 All Pros (whoops) - Still with team

Steve Smith - 1 Pro Bowl (Alternate) - 0 All Pros - Still with team

Kevin Boss - 0 Pro Bowls - 0 All Pros (whoops) - Still with team

Ahmad Bradshaw - 0 Pro Bowls - 0 All Pros (whoops) - Still with team

Kenny Phillips - 0 Pro Bowls - 0 All Pros (whoops) - Still with team

Mario Manningham - 0 Pro Bowls - 0 All Pros (whoops) - Still with team

Hakeem Knicks - 0 Pro Bowls - 0 All Pros (whoops) - Still with team

And as far as keeping good players on the team, can you name one guy, other than JP, who has been to a pro bowl after we let him go? Part of a GM's job is to get rid of players when they are no longer good.

Now, I'm sure you will go back and come up with another new set of parameters to judge a GM. And then I'll show you how you are wrong again.:toetap05:

[Ohio]

Why are you saying "whoops" when those players are clearly pretty damn good players. And a lot of those guys are from the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 7th rounds? Funny that you ask "well can you name a guy who we let go, that went to the Pro Bowl"? Chris Harris made 2 team All Pro this past year, WHOOPS!

And Hakeem Nicks was an absolute STUD before he got hurt, but biased people like yourself won't acknowledge that. Just like you didn't acknowledge that 4 of the guys you tried to brag about, are no longer on the team.

And you make yourself look bad when you say, "Part of a GM's job is to get rid of players when they are no longer good." Guess what buddy, we let Muhsin Muhammad go to the Bears for 3 years, and brought him back when he was ancient. Why would we bring back guys who are no longer good?

Do you really want to debate the players I brought up, to the ones you did?

If you seriously want to compare the players that the Giants drafted, to the players Hurney drafted, you'll lose every time. It's laughable that you think I'm wrong, when I clearly proved you wrong, by using your own words against you. Whoops!

[Fiz]

Colbert wasn't a bad pick.

[Zithers]

Why are you saying "whoops" when those players are clearly pretty damn good players. And a lot of those guys are from the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 7th rounds? Funny that you ask "well can you name a guy who we let go, that went to the Pro Bowl"? Chris Harris made 2 team All Pro this past year, WHOOPS!

And Hakeem Nicks was an absolute STUD before he got hurt, but biased people like yourself won't acknowledge that. Just like you didn't acknowledge that 4 of the guys you tried to brag about, are no longer on the team.

And you make yourself look bad when you say, "Part of a GM's job is to get rid of players when they are no longer good." Guess what buddy, we let Muhsin Muhammad go to the Bears for 3 years, and brought him back when he was ancient. Why would we bring back guys who are no longer good?

Do you really want to debate the players I brought up, to the ones you did?

If you seriously want to compare the players that the Giants drafted, to the players Hurney drafted, you'll lose every time. It's laughable that you think I'm wrong, when I clearly proved you wrong, by using your own words against you. Whoops!

To be fair, Chris Harris played SS for us and wasn't THAT great. We wanted to kick Martin inside so we found him expendable... then he moved to FS in Chicago and randomly became a monster.

Moose was really good for a #2 in his first year back. His best season since we let him go.

I agree that the Giants have been better at drafting lately - just wanted to point that out.

[Seamonk]

It seems like they do their Research in Round 1 and 3. Go with need and BPA in those rounds. And then go with random wants, not necessarily BPA either. just a guy they wanted and fell in love with in round 2. It's always the guy who fell to them too. And then Hurney and Foxy have that glimmer in their eye when talking about them during the post-draft press conference. Hopefully Rivera is smarter than to fall in love with a particular player and punches Hurney in the face if he ever feels like trading future picks for players who could have been had later.

[Stumpy]

Why are you saying "whoops" when those players are clearly pretty damn good players. And a lot of those guys are from the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 7th rounds?

I said "whoops" because you said "everyday starters" don't matter. That pro bowl players are the best way to judge a GM. Then you named a bunch of guys, the majority of whom have never made a Pro Bowl

I think the better question is, is how many pro bowlers has he drafted or brought in? If you just want everyday starters, that's not what's going to help you win games in the playoffs against more talented teams.

How about this former GM, Ernie Accorsi

He drafted Jeremy Shockey 1st round

Kevin Walter 7th round

Osi Umenyiora 2nd round

Chris Snee 2nd round

Justin Tuck 2nd round

Brandon Jacobs 3rd round

Barry Cofield 4th round

How about his successor, Jerry Reese

Aaron Ross 1st round

Steve Smith 2nd round

Kevin Boss 5th round

Ahmad Bradshaw 7th round - All the same draft ^^^

Kenny Phillips 1st round

Mario Manningham 3rd round

Hakeem Nicks 1st round

Funny that you ask "well can you name a guy who we let go, that went to the Pro Bowl"? Chris Harris made 2 team All Pro this past year, WHOOPS!

So in 9 years as GM, Hurney has only let go of 2 players who still had Pro Bowl talent. God he sucks!

And Hakeem Nicks was an absolute STUD before he got hurt, but biased people like yourself won't acknowledge that. Just like you didn't acknowledge that 4 of the guys you tried to brag about, are no longer on the team.

Hakeem absolutely was a stud, he won me a fantasy championship. But we also have plenty of studs on our team who have not made a Pro Bowl.

And you make yourself look bad when you say, "Part of a GM's job is to get rid of players when they are no longer good." Guess what buddy, we let Muhsin Muhammad go to the Bears for 3 years, and brought him back when he was ancient. Why would we bring back guys who are no longer good?

And now you change the parameters again. Okay, we signed Mike Wahle got one good year and one Pro Bowl year, then cut his ass loose. Hurney signed Davis and rode him to a Super Bowl then cut him loose a year later. We let Moose go because he wanted #1 receiver money and we knew he wasn't worth it, so we let Chicago overpay him. Then we bring him back for next to nothing, get a 900+yd season on the way to a 12-4 record, then cut him loose.

Do you really want to debate the players I brought up, to the ones you did?

If you seriously want to compare the players that the Giants drafted, to the players Hurney drafted, you'll lose every time. It's laughable that you think I'm wrong, when I clearly proved you wrong, by using your own words against you. Whoops!

I've compared them in every way you asked and you keep changing how you want to judge them. This started off as a discussion on 2nd round picks. And when I showed that Hurney's record for 2nd round picks isn't as bad as it seems, then you said

your missing a big component. Free Agency which Hurney has been an amateur.

So then I named all the good free agent signings he has made. So the you said, it's not about "everyday starters," its about Pro Bowlers.

Then I showed you all the Prow Bowlers that Hurney has drafted or signed. So now you are saying it is about good players who have never made a pro bowl. So...

Ken Lucas

Chris Gamble

Richard Marshall

Jeff Otah

Jonathon Stewart

Travelle Wharton

Thomas Davis

Chris Harris (As you've pointed out, he is a Pro Bowl player.)

Charles Johnson

James Anderson

So what's your next parameter? Bring it on.

[Ohio]

I said "whoops" because you said "everyday starters" don't matter. That pro bowl players are the best way to judge a GM. Then you named a bunch of guys, the majority of whom have never made a Pro Bowl

Show me where I said Pro Bowl players are the BEST WAY TO JUDGE. You can't you made it up.

So in 9 years as GM, Hurney has only let go of 2 players who still had Pro Bowl talent. God he sucks!

Have you seen the moves he's made? Yes he does.

Hakeem absolutely was a stud, he won me a fantasy championship. But we also have plenty of studs on our team who have not made a Pro Bowl.

Tell me what studs, besides Deangelos 1 year outta his whole career, what studs do you speak of?

And now you change the parameters again. Okay, we signed Mike Wahle got one good year and one Pro Bowl year, then cut his ass loose. Hurney signed Davis and rode him to a Super Bowl then cut him loose a year later. We let Moose go because he wanted #1 receiver money and we knew he wasn't worth it, so we let Chicago overpay him. Then we bring him back for next to nothing, get a 900+yd season on the way to a 12-4 record, then cut him loose.

This is how I know you don't know what you're talking about. The last year Moose played for us before we cut him, he led the league in Yards and TD's. But you believe he "wasn't worth #1 money". So if you want to believe a guy who leads the NFL in yards and td's isn't worthy of NFL money, then obviously you don't know what you're talking about, and you would be defending Marty Hurney.

I've compared them in every way you asked and you keep changing how you want to judge them. This started off as a discussion on 2nd round picks. And when I showed that Hurney's record for 2nd round picks isn't as bad as it seems, then you said

You told me nothing. You said "well our 2nd rounders aren't that bad, they start!" Like that actually means something. How about being effective. Which the NYG players I posted have been, did when a Super Bowl, and never went 2-14...

So then I named all the good free agent signings he has made. So the you said, it's not about "everyday starters," its about Pro Bowlers.

Then I showed you all the Prow Bowlers that Hurney has drafted or signed. So now you are saying it is about good players who have never made a pro bowl. So...

Ken Lucas

Chris Gamble

Richard Marshall

Jeff Otah

Jonathon Stewart

Travelle Wharton

Thomas Davis

Chris Harris (As you've pointed out, he is a Pro Bowl player.)

Charles Johnson

James Anderson

So what's your next parameter? Bring it on.

Let's look at that list there, Ken Lucas- GONE, Gamble- good, Richard Marshall- Not good, he was beat like a dog. Otah- proved nothing, he's too injury prone. Stewart- good, but injury prone. Wharton- Average, Thomas Davis- 1 decent year, too injury prone. Harris- Gone, James Anderson- LAUGHABLE.

The players that Hurney drafted and brought in, brought us 2 wins last year. And you think they're better then the Giants players...Keep trying to divert.

[Stumpy]

[Ohio]

Yeah that's what I thought, no comeback. My job is done here.

[jramsey4]

Show me where I said Pro Bowl players are the BEST WAY TO JUDGE. You can't you made it up.

Have you seen the moves he's made? Yes he does.

Tell me what studs, besides Deangelos 1 year outta his whole career, what studs do you speak of?

This is how I know you don't know what you're talking about. The last year Moose played for us before we cut him, he led the league in Yards and TD's. But you believe he "wasn't worth #1 money". So if you want to believe a guy who leads the NFL in yards and td's isn't worthy of NFL money, then obviously you don't know what you're talking about, and you would be defending Marty Hurney.

You told me nothing. You said "well our 2nd rounders aren't that bad, they start!" Like that actually means something. How about being effective. Which the NYG players I posted have been, did when a Super Bowl, and never went 2-14...

Let's look at that list there, Ken Lucas- GONE, Gamble- good, Richard Marshall- Not good, he was beat like a dog. Otah- proved nothing, he's too injury prone. Stewart- good, but injury prone. Wharton- Average, Thomas Davis- 1 decent year, too injury prone. Harris- Gone, James Anderson- LAUGHABLE.

The players that Hurney drafted and brought in, brought us 2 wins last year. And you think they're better then the Giants players...Keep trying to divert.

We didn't cut Moose. We just didn't resign him. I still think that was a good decision he went to the Bears and got huge money. What wasn't a good decision was to expect Key or Jarrett to be his replacement. His QB negligence is the reason we have been so average for the last half a decade.

Like I have said Hurney is an average GM. There are just some Homers on here that think he is better then he is (the same could be said about Fox).

Speaking of the Giants there drafting took a huge step forward when they signed Ross to be there Dir. of College Scouting. I was hoping we would let Hurney walk and get him as our new GM, he has a good eye for talent.

[Fiz]

What wasn't a good decision was to expect Key or Jarrett to be his replacement.

what the hell keyshawn had a very good year for the Panthers that year.

[frash.exe]

Everybody loves to hate Keyshawn even though he gave us as much as he gave Dallas the year before