John Fox in perspective: How do you judge?

[E CaT PanTHer]

it's really hard to blame fox for the loss against arizona. I really think this past season was our season. Our defense was a little skeptical, but our offense was clicking on all cylinders that I think we would have outscored any opponent that we came across. Unfortunately Jake decided to have the worst game of his career at a very bad time. 6 turnovers is impossible to overcome for any coach.

[Fireball77]

I've never thought he was one of the best in the NFL, but I also don't think it's entirely fair to compare him to non-salary cap era coaches.

[mantal]

He has raised the level of performance to the point where expectations exceed ability. I think it might be time for him to go and us get a coach in that will allow us to lower our expectations a bit...

[Kurb]

John Fox is able to do something very few teams can do.

He sticks to his strategy no matter what arrises, either breaking down horribly when someone has a better strat, or completely destroying the other side. He is the ONLY coach I have seen that will force players into a system, whether they fit or not, and still manage to get success. He is a good coach, not great (yet), and his efforts are highly underappreciated in the Carolina's. We will miss him when he is gone, unless we get incredibly lucky and get the next Mike Tomlin.

[Cyberjag]

As with Jake Delhomme, Coach John Fox has lost favor with a portion of Carolina's fan base. Are we being too critical? Or, should we wander through our own form of desert for 40 years until Fox delivers us to the promised land? Has he earned that much with a respectable .563 winning percentage, a trip to 3 postseasons and a Super Bowl? I am just asking the question, I don't know if I'd dump Fox or not, particularly after a 12-4 season, but I am a little restless and critical after viewing some of his work over the past 3 seasons.

<snip>

That's a pretty damn small portion compared to the noise they make. The short answer is we don't need to judge him, that's up to the Richardsons. But if you do, I think you look at his performance against the rest of the league over the past 3-4 years. Go back 5 if you want to be generous. You also have to judge Hurney and make a call on how you factor in injuries.

Just about any way you slice it, he's going to look pretty good. Unless, of course, you're in that vocal minority who scream and rant anytime they get less than perfection.

[holycrikey]

That's a pretty damn small portion compared to the noise they make. The short answer is we don't need to judge him, that's up to the Richardsons.

I agree. I'm pretty sure they have a better idea of what the Panthers need as an organization than any of us do.

and +1 to whoever said it was unfair to compare to non-salary cap era coaches. Whole different ballgame back then.

[Fireball77]

That was me. Look at Joe Gibbs for example, pre and post salary cap stints.

Hell, even Parcells hasn't won a SB post salary cap and he knows talent.

[Ncstatefan]

I say let him go after next year if he doesn't preform to our standards

[panthers55]

SO what have we learned?

We should judge Fox solely based on his first 7 years as a head coach with his first team.

Fox is not a Hall of Fame coach and shouldn't be mentioned as one.

He has not won a Super bowl similar to other coaches in this era like Andy Reid, Lovie Smith and HOFers like Marv Levy.

While his winning percentage is 4th best among active coaches with 5 years experience, and he went 12-4 last season he should be on the hot seat although people will reluctantly give him one more chance.

If he doesn't win the Super Bowl next year he should be canned.

We should replace him with Bill Cowher who took over 10 years to win a Super Bowl but won more regular season games although Bill hasn't shown interest and has turned down jobs for the past 2 years.

All of the offensive and defensive problems are due to Fox. None of the defensive and offensive success is due to Fox.

Have I missed any??

[top dawg]

Let's not forget that he helped join a big core of the team. Fox and his staff have done quite well in the draft in the past years. Look at some of the guys they've come across: Jordan Gross, Chris Gamble, Travelle Wharton, Thomas Davis, Geoff Hangartner, DeAngelo Williams, Richard Marshall, Jon Beason, Ryan Kalil, Jonathan Stewart, Jeff Otah, etc. These are only a few of our starters since 2003 via the draft. Is it all Fox's success? No. But he's built a solid team with solid personnel. Our team is almost year in and year out a threatening team (look at the debacle of teams like the Browns, Lions, 49ers, Raiders, etc since 2002ish.)

Yeah, this is a point that I believe is sometimes overlooked, or at least not discussed that much. The Fox administration has really stepped up its game in the personnel department, and have maximized their manipulation of mathematics in this department which is even more impressive when you look at the talent that has been acquired.

Fox is straight up communist. We really don't know sh*t about Fox other than he is conservative. He is very 1 dimensional to the public, and thats what is pissing folks off.

Yes, it may be all a matter of perception. About as animated as you're going to see him is giving a few token claps as players come off the field, or when he is chewing gum.

You can't say, "Fox can't coach and chew gum at the same time." Hell, when he stops chewing the gum is when you have to start worrying.

Yes, Fox just may be less charismatic than Pep.

[Snake]

Jon Fox is a top 10 coach. He could be a top 5 if he was not so conservative. One thing stays the same. If Fox was not conservative everyone would want him to be and that I do know.

[top dawg]

Jon Fox is a top 10 coach. He could be a top 5 if he was not so conservative. One thing stays the same. If Fox was not conservative everyone would want him to be and that I do know.

Fox has been a good coach, no doubt. Are you saying that people just want to be disagreeable?

I just think people want the team to be the best that they can be, and want Fox to to coach us to that end on a consistent basis (and ultimately bring the Lombardi trophy to Carolina). Conservative play calling is great when you have the goods rely on it. In my opinion, the problem with Fox is that he is conservative to the point where it hurts the team---in that some of his decisions stunt what should be the natural flow for the team during the game (not to mention stunting the natural development of some of our younger guys by not calling their number sooner or a little more often, but that's another debatable argument).

Suffice it to say that it was a damned shame how we got chopped off at the knees this year with such a talented team, and I fear that a talented John Fox is going to get chopped off at the knees in the next couple of years if he can't get us over the hump. Ironically, perhaps our team wasn't as talented as we thought (I mean we saw some warning signs ever since the Minny game in my opinion), and it may have been Fox's "fault" for raising the level of expectation by being too good at the time, but when reality started to take over we were too far gone. And, now we assign a certain amount of fault to Fox for failing to meet our unrealistic expectations.

Is it fair to put him on the hot seat, or even a warm seat, after a 12-4 season? If we have another 10+ game winning season next year and take an early exit from the playoffs, will that be enough to secure his job? Will a 9-7 season warrant his dismissal? I can realistically see us having the same discussions about Fox this time next year (save for a trophy), that's why I wanted to attempt to give people a chance to put it all in perspective.

[guyinchesapeake]

My take on Fox: He reminds me, a lot, of a basketball coach UVA had in the '70s and 80s', Terry Holland. Holland was great at taking so-so talent and getting impressive results with it. However, when he had exceptional talent, like during the Ralph Sampson years, his teams were (overall) underachieving. Fox reminds me of those tendencies so far in his tenure.

However, it won't take but one SB win to crown him as an 'elite' coach. That's just the way it is. Cowher was around forever it seems, rated as a good coach but couldn't win the big one. Then he DID win the big one, and he is arguably the most sought after candidate to fill a coaching opening today. Elway was suddenly an all time great SB QB when he finally won it (after losing 3). Marino and Kelley will always have the albatross of not winning one hang around their necks, fairly or unfairly, that's the way it is. Several coaches come to mind who were very good quite often in the regular season, but couldn't get to, or win if they did, the big one. Chuck Knox, Shottenheimer, Buddy Ryan come to mind here.

If Fox wins me a SB here, he'll be alright by me. But if they let him go today, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. I think the odds are against him at this point in his tenure here. A new direction may be in the offing for the 'Cats. Time will tell..

[Kurb]

I say let him go after next year if he doesn't preform to our standards

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

What exactly are our standards ?

12-4 is a pretty damn good record, and half the board wanted him fired after the last game.