Under NO circumstances should the Panthers tag Gross

[Ncstatefan]

The Schwartz = Pro Bowler for the next 18 seasons

"The dude abides"

[carpanfan96]

I know that is a big part of my side too.....

Those 'small' stipulations can halt contracts, and in the end make them never happen.

So like I said if he doesn't like them now, or last year, why would he like them next year?

Still though that doesn't mean the offer isn't fair, and I still put this on him over the organization.

I never said the deal they offered wasn't fair. It could be an awesome deal, he just wants a language out that the panthers want in. I agree he's holding up the talks, but he has to look out for himself too. As does the team, but if it isn't a big deal or anything that's going to hurt the club, they need to just change the language and get it over with.

Reminds me of Greene when he played here, the panthers gave him a good deal, but they didn't want him wrestling so he left because he wanted to continue to do so.

[357wayz]

For those saying Gross is indispensible, didnt he miss a couple of games this past season with a concussion? Does anyone remember the O line completely self destructing in those games? I dont.....I'm not saying Gross wouldnt be great to keep around, but we need quality draft picks even more to retool our secondary and get some help on the defensive line. If the O-line goes into training camp without Gross, they will have time to gel together and everyone can get used to their new spots.

[carpanfan96]

On the same token, if signing the 'good RT' was hard, then how well do you expect signing the all-pro LT to go. So I can't really forget last years deal now can I, seeing as how this years deal is higher/better.(and yet he isn't signed)

So you are willing to just drop it all and give Gross everything he wants, just because he was voted all-pro for one year?

They should do their best to sign Gross, but not do everything. He has a say in the matter too ya know, you guys are being too fooled by his little statement.

See that whole thing about tagging the guy 'who wants to be here' is fan talk, not business talk. They are not thinking about that one bit.

They said it took three years of Jenkins saying he wanted out before they traded him.(they have shown that they will keep you regardless of what you say)

I'm not saying drop everything for him, the panthers are in a shitty position in this because of Carey and the way they handled peppers wanting to leave. The only way this situation looks good for the panthers is if they sign Gross to a deal and tag and trade peppers. That being said the club has three options one looks good the other two bad.

Sign gross and trade peppers.

Tag and trade peppers and let gross hit the market. (someone is going to drop some big money on him if this happens so it's not likely that we retain him if it does.)

Tag Gross and try to work on a deal, let peppers walk.

Lets say situation 2 happens which is what your saying we should do if we can't sign him. Lets say our deal right now to him is 6 years for 68 million with 30 guaranteed. another team offers him more and he goes. Leaving us with a tagged peppers.

Lets say we find a good deal for peppers but he says no go, (he can do this, by not agreeing to work on a new deal with the other club. Lets say we end up getting a 1st 3rd and a 5/6th rounder for him. We need dline help badly, this is a good draft for OT.

Pretty much means we have to use one of our first two picks on a OT, that might not play out well, other pick goes to defense. Now were out two of our better players for a rookie LT and a Rookie Dlinemen. Where losing our two best line players for hope. Gee I hope these new guys are half as good as the other guys we let go.

The Panther situation is horrible, the best way out besides for situation one is three. Losing peppers for nothing isn't the end of the world. Losing both players though would be catastrophic.

[pantherclaw]

Our O-line is stronger/deeper than our D-line.

We wouldn't spend the picks we get for Peppers to replace Gross, we would replace Peppers with the picks we get.

Weak defensive line class. No way would we replace Peppers with the picks we get. SPECIALLY if Gross ended up not getting signed. Tackle would be a huge priority.

If Gross doesn't sign, keeping him includes tagging him, so you are in the same boat next year. Why would they keep trying to sign a guy 3 years running?

False. Tagging him keeps him off the market, and gives us more time to sign him long term. Why sign him, cause good tackles don't come easy.

Franchising Gross is basically patching a hole, not fixing it.

Franchising Gross, should it happen, is preventing to having to replace two good players, instead of just one.

[carpanfan96]

For those saying Gross is indispensible, didnt he miss a couple of games this past season with a concussion? Does anyone remember the O line completely self destructing in those games? I dont.....I'm not saying Gross wouldnt be great to keep around, but we need quality draft picks even more to retool our secondary and get some help on the defensive line. If the O-line goes into training camp without Gross, they will have time to gel together and everyone can get used to their new spots.

Who you going to put at LT????? Otah = no (he's not good enough in pass protection yet for that, what about Warton = no, he's a much better LG then LT and we need to keep him there, Rookie = not too comfortable with and the best bet for us if we let gross leave thus ruining the point of tagging and trading peppers to give us more good players for defense. Add to that our secondary wont be retooled, the best thats going to happen is lucas being cut or restructured. IF he gets cut, Marshall is the starter and Wilson is the Nick. We might draft someone in a later round say 3rd or 4th at CB no earlier then that though. Your db's don't mean squat if your front 7 aren't getting pressure.

[blpanther]

Wharton could move to LT, but then we'd be back to having TWO weak guards. Not saying that the guys there can't be decent. But decent isn't what we want. Why are people willing to let the oline go backwards after it taking so many years to get a good o-line? The chances of Vincent having another good year isn't good, specially with him having a groin injury.

I understand your desires, but this isn't Madden, and it's not going to play out like you think.

OK Mr Expert, how will it play out? You seem to think you have the answer.

There wasn't much of a dropoff when Bridges, Hang or Vincent filled the role. Vincent has the edge for run blocking. Wharton is a better guard than tackle, no doubt. However, unless you are an expert on Vincent's groin, then why doesn't he fully recover.?. Groin injuries typically don't end careers or linger like hammies and sports hernias. If you read my post, there is good quality at the guard position in round 2 and 3 of the draft. Vincent is a decent guard and we can fill the other hole. That won't be an issue. Short of signing Gross, anything is a step back on the OL but that doesn't justify letting Pepp walk.

What is an issue is that we have a pro-bowl LT that has already been franchised once and still has not signed a long-term contract. Why is that? Do we waste another franchise tag on him to get another year of service so we can be in the same situation next year? In the process, we will let the most coveted free agent go without any compensation. Sounds like a brilliant move to me. Offer Gross his money and if he wants to test the waters, then so be it. However, don't lose two first day picks in the process. Even the Madden beginners wouldn't make that mistake.

[carpanfan96]

OK Mr Expert, how will it play out? You seem to think you have the answer.

There wasn't much of a dropoff when Bridges, Hang or Vincent filled the role. Vincent has the edge for run blocking. Wharton is a better guard than tackle, no doubt. However, unless you are an expert on Vincent's groin, then why doesn't he fully recover.?. Groin injuries typically don't end careers or linger like hammies and sports hernias. If you read my post, there is good quality at the guard position in round 2 and 3 of the draft. Vincent is a decent guard and we can fill the other hole. That won't be an issue. Short of signing Gross, anything is a step back on the OL but that doesn't justify letting Pepp walk.

What is an issue is that we have a pro-bowl LT that has already been franchised once and still has not signed a long-term contract. Why is that? Do we waste another franchise tag on him to get another year of service so we can be in the same situation next year? In the process, we will let the most coveted free agent go without any compensation. Sounds like a brilliant move to me. Offer Gross his money and if he wants to test the waters, then so be it. However, don't lose two first day picks in the process. Even the Madden beginners wouldn't make that mistake.

I know you weren't talking to me, but I'll answer anyways. The issue is last year he was a RT, this season he's a all-pro pro bowl LT, which means he's just became the highest paid LT in the league by default. Thats simple, as for moving the line around. You want to really effect what that line did last season?????

Otah is best used at RT, his pass protection needs some serious work for him to move over to LT, Wharton is best used at LG. He's an average LT at best, but a beast at LG. No one else on the team should even be considered for the starting LT spot.

That means either FA or draft. FA OT are slim to none for the LT spot. The draft is deep at OT, but we would have to use one of those picks for a replacement for Gross that we got in the peppers deal.

Our dline without pep most likely isn't going to be good no matter what we do short of picking up Haynesworth. (not going to happen, so the dline is going to most likely suck next year. Is getting a couple of picks for Peppers and Gross worth it???? No it isn't, Gross has to be signed. IF that means pep walks so be it. Your basically saying, Lets just trade Gross and Peppers for a 1st and a 3rd. When that should at least be getting you 2 - 3 first rounders and a couple of later picks. In the Tag and trade peppers but let gross walk situation we'd basically be trading peppers for a 3rd rounder. Is that what you think he's worth?????

[blpanther]

I know you weren't talking to me, but I'll answer anyways. The issue is last year he was a RT, this season he's a all-pro pro bowl LT, which means he's just became the highest paid LT in the league by default. Thats simple, as for moving the line around. You want to really effect what that line did last season?????

Otah is best used at RT, his pass protection needs some serious work for him to move over to LT, Wharton is best used at LG. He's an average LT at best, but a beast at LG. No one else on the team should even be considered for the starting LT spot.

That means either FA or draft. FA OT are slim to none for the LT spot. The draft is deep at OT, but we would have to use one of those picks for a replacement for Gross that we got in the peppers deal.

Our dline without pep most likely isn't going to be good no matter what we do short of picking up Haynesworth. (not going to happen, so the dline is going to most likely suck next year. Is getting a couple of picks for Peppers and Gross worth it???? No it isn't, Gross has to be signed. IF that means pep walks so be it. Your basically saying, Lets just trade Gross and Peppers for a 1st and a 3rd. When that should at least be getting you 2 - 3 first rounders and a couple of later picks. In the Tag and trade peppers but let gross walk situation we'd basically be trading peppers for a 3rd rounder. Is that what you think he's worth?????

I'm not sure I follow you but here it goes anyways.

Yes, everyone that has watched more than a couple games realizes Wharton is a better LG than LT. In fact, he is a very good guard. However, the guard position is easier to fill than LT. We could very easily get a bull in the 2nd or 3rd round that would fill the position nicely. That being said, should we let Peppers walk with two first day picks so we can tag Gross and have him for one more year before we are having the same discussion.?. Not just no, but hell no. Would you trade a first and third round pick for a player that won't sign a long term contract, no. If Gross AND the Panthers want it done, then it can be done by Thursday. Otherwise, we're just buying a year and then he'll test the market. I'd rather have two first day picks that will improve the team next year, and for many years to come. Lets not forget the contributions from last year's day - 1 draft picks.

[carpanfan96]

I'm not sure I follow you but here it goes anyways.

Yes, everyone that has watched more than a couple games realizes Wharton is a better LG than LT. In fact, he is a very good guard. However, the guard position is easier to fill than LT. We could very easily get a bull in the 2nd or 3rd round that would fill the position nicely. That being said, should we let Peppers walk with two first day picks so we can tag Gross and have him for one more year before we are having the same discussion.?. Not just no, but hell no. Would you trade a first and third round pick for a player that won't sign a long term contract, no. If Gross AND the Panthers want it done, then it can be done by Thursday. Otherwise, we're just buying a year and then he'll test the market. I'd rather have two first day picks that will improve the team next year, and for many years to come. Lets not forget the contributions from last year's day - 1 draft picks.

Glad we didn't have to see them let peppers walk. Though they were prepared to do so. Gross was the 1 priority this off season, not getting something in return for peppers.

Who do you take with those picks????? there's no guarantee there will be someone worth taking for a position of need that,s worth the pick. There isn't but a hand full of DE's worth a first day selection. OT is deep in the draft though. Your still losing both peppers and gross this season for nothing really in return except a couple of picks. There would be no noticeable improvement on defense from this draft and our offense would've suffered without gross.