Jenson's OTB: Panthers Source on Edwards, Clausen

[Happy Panther]

It's funny because during the Bustin Loose show today, I heard Moose say he had sources within the Panthers organization who say that Clausen's inability to grasp the offensive scheme caused them to have to really limit the offense last year and they are definitely looking for someone else to be the starting QB.

This was pretty obvious if you watched his early games. I recall in the Bengals game Jimmy locked in on one receiver on every passing play. I commented how bad that was and my buddy pointed out that perhaps the staff had dumbed down the playbook for him.

By the end of the season the playbook opened up for him and he did start scanning receivers. His game still stunk though

[mav1234]

Does anybody know the Browns (owners)? They will let him retire. They don't really care. They will call his bluff. If Carson continues to try and strong arm the Bengals they will dig in even deeper and just let him retire.

Plus, all I am saying is the "source" from Cincy didn't say swap picks and a 4th. He said it would take at least a 1st round pick and a 4th round pick.

I'm sorry guys swapping picks and a 4th ain't happening.

The Bengals owner is a bit of an ass and might force him into retirement, but it's far more likely that after a CBA is reached, he'll be pressured into trading him so the team actually can improve from it. The biggest reason I don't see this deal happening is the CBA.

The point is that if this deal COULD happen it would be worthwhile.

[teeray]

The Bengals owner is a bit of an ass and might force him into retirement, but it's far more likely that after a CBA is reached, he'll be pressured into trading him so the team actually can improve from it. The biggest reason I don't see this deal happening is the CBA.

The point is that if this deal COULD happen it would be worthwhile.

Yeah if it could happen. And monkeys might fly out of my butt (had to use the Wayne's World reference, I apologize :D:D:D)

I can guarantee you it will take more than a swap and a 4th. That is dreaming. It will take either a stand alone 1st or a myriad of future picks.

To me that is riskier than picking a bust bc if Carson doesn't pan out losing those picks can cause your roster to regress while your QB is sucking.

At least if a bust happens although we may take a bath financially but you are still upgrading your roster through the draft.

[Cyberjag]

Cyber, I know we go back and forth a lot on this Clausen character but I have one question for you.....

Do you think Clausen can achieve whatever potential he has in any offense....the offensive scheme doesn't have an impact on what kind of success he can find?

I am not saying I 100% disagree w/ Clausen having potential ( don't think his ceiling is very high b/c he just doesn't have the physical tools)....I just don't get the reasoning of him having the same chance in any type offense. I would rate his chances for success vastly difference based on the offense he was in. Just curious of your take.

I think everyone hears Coryell and assumes that we need a QB who can throw a 50 yard frozen rope. That's not the case at all. The Raiders run it with Jason Campbell, the Lions ran it with Shaun Hill, and though both of those guys have strong arms I don't think anyone's ever lauded either for deep accuracy. They also seem to think that Coryell requires the QB throw at least 20 yards on every pass play. That's also not true, and it's not even close.

Coryell wants you to have a strong running game, and to have a QB who can throw deep, but who also has good middle-range accuracy. It was derived from the same offense as the WCO--both require a ton of precision and timing. The difference is the WCO uses a lot more short passing, while the Coryell uses more power running. Both systems open up the deep ball nicely, and your QB is expected to go deep with it when the defense takes away the short to intermediate game. And if you doubt this, please do a google search on Walsh's comments about the deep ball before declaring it to be wrong, ok?

Go look at the Browns offense when Chud was the OC there and you see a ton of short passes to the running backs and tight ends. You also see a lot of very long passing plays, where Anderson basically heaved it downfield where Edwards and Jurevicius ran under it. There's nothing that was done there that Clausen can't do well, as long as he has some protection to give him time for the play to unfold.

I know a lot of people don't think he can play in anything that requires a pass over 10 yards, but that's just not true. The emphasis on routes in our offense will be a lot more on timing, and instead of reading and leading Clausen will be expected to just throw to a spot and trust that the receiver will be there. Particularly on your 10-15 yard throws, he can do that well.

And finally, I read all these people who claim he can't go deep, and they're the same ones that liked to say Delhomme heaved it up and let Smitty make the play. Apparently, that won't work with Jimmy--if he see's the safety cheating up and Smith deep in single coverage, and throws it deep, somehow it will now be the CB who beats Smitty for the catch. That just strikes me as ridiculous.

I know a lot of people disagree with me. I don't particularly care, we'll find out soon enough. But I feel like Clausen can and will develop just like every other rookie does, and the question is how much.

Most of the anti-Jimmy crowd assume that what we saw in 2010 is as good as it's going to get. I don't believe that, it's that simple.

[teeray]

I know a lot of people disagree with me. I don't particularly care, we'll find out soon enough. But I feel like Clausen can and will develop just like every other rookie does, and the question is how much.

Most of the anti-Jimmy crowd assume that what we saw in 2010 is as good as it's going to get. I don't believe that, it's that simple.

I don't disagree with this.

But he is going to have to progress A LOT. If he progresses only a little he will graduate to Jake Delhomme status not Matt Ryan status.

I hope you are right bc I think whether we use our pick at QB or not Clausen will be given every chance to succeed.

[Happy Panther]

Most of the anti-Jimmy crowd assume that what we saw in 2010 is as good as it's going to get. I don't believe that, it's that simple.

Most of the "anti-jimmy" crowd does not believe this at all.

Rather

1) He stinks on a fundamental level

2) He needs to sit as a backup to have a chance to develop

3) While not impossible, the chance that he develops into a legitimate NFL starter is slim

Sure he will get better just like the Panthers will get better. Its hard to get worse when you are already the worst

[The Saltman]

Can someone make money off of being a "jimmy Clausen expert"?

[Happy Panther]

But he is going to have to progress A LOT. If he progresses only a little he will graduate to Jake Delhomme status not Matt Ryan status.

Jake Delhomme was a hell of a QB from 2003 to 2008 and a pro bowler to boot.

If Jimmy Clausen developed in Jake delhomme this city would go apeshit.

[teeray]

Salt you destroy the rep You are my hero :) How do you do it???

[teeray]

Jake Delhomme was a hell of a QB from 2003 to 2008 and a pro bowler to boot.

If Jimmy Clausen developed in Jake delhomme this city would go apepoo.

I actually liked Jake. I thought it was a mistake to release him.

But I meant Jake of 2009 not Jake or 2004 when I said that about Clausen. His year last year wasn't even close to as good as Jake's worst year ever.

[panfan32]

Last year at this time Basanez was going to become the franchise's best QB in history.

Basanez????????

He has not been on the roster in almost 3 years... Where did you get that from :confused:

[CRA]

I think everyone hears Coryell and assumes that we need a QB who can throw a 50 yard frozen rope. That's not the case at all. The Raiders run it with Jason Campbell, the Lions ran it with Shaun Hill, and though both of those guys have strong arms I don't think anyone's ever lauded either for deep accuracy. They also seem to think that Coryell requires the QB throw at least 20 yards on every pass play. That's also not true, and it's not even close.

Coryell wants you to have a strong running game, and to have a QB who can throw deep, but who also has good middle-range accuracy. It was derived from the same offense as the WCO--both require a ton of precision and timing. The difference is the WCO uses a lot more short passing, while the Coryell uses more power running. Both systems open up the deep ball nicely, and your QB is expected to go deep with it when the defense takes away the short to intermediate game. And if you doubt this, please do a google search on Walsh's comments about the deep ball before declaring it to be wrong, ok?

Go look at the Browns offense when Chud was the OC there and you see a ton of short passes to the running backs and tight ends. You also see a lot of very long passing plays, where Anderson basically heaved it downfield where Edwards and Jurevicius ran under it. There's nothing that was done there that Clausen can't do well, as long as he has some protection to give him time for the play to unfold.

I know a lot of people don't think he can play in anything that requires a pass over 10 yards, but that's just not true. The emphasis on routes in our offense will be a lot more on timing, and instead of reading and leading Clausen will be expected to just throw to a spot and trust that the receiver will be there. Particularly on your 10-15 yard throws, he can do that well.

And finally, I read all these people who claim he can't go deep, and they're the same ones that liked to say Delhomme heaved it up and let Smitty make the play. Apparently, that won't work with Jimmy--if he see's the safety cheating up and Smith deep in single coverage, and throws it deep, somehow it will now be the CB who beats Smitty for the catch. That just strikes me as ridiculous.

I know a lot of people disagree with me. I don't particularly care, we'll find out soon enough. But I feel like Clausen can and will develop just like every other rookie does, and the question is how much.

Most of the anti-Jimmy crowd assume that what we saw in 2010 is as good as it's going to get. I don't believe that, it's that simple.

Most don't think you need to throw it 50 yards downfield.....most think you need to be able to throw 10-20 yards. That is the important window. You have to be a consistant threat in that window of play.

If you go back and look at Chud's offense the 10-20 yard throws is what the offense was about and where the big production was at. Clausen hasn't proven he can do that well as you stated....he also hasn't proven he can use the middle of the field (and several things factor into that).

but in all that I didn't see your answer....do you think Clausen can achieve whatever his ceiling is in any offense? does scheme matter to QBs?

[Cyberjag]

Scheme does matter to a QB, but a QB matters to a scheme as well. Some quarterbacks are best suited to one sort of scheme, some can play in multiple. That's pretty obvious, but I don't think it's all you are asking about.

Everyone here seems to think that Clausen needs a west coast offense to be good, which is probably because his yards per attempt was so low and he looked to throw short his entire rookie season. That represents a gross over-simplification of what it takes to succeed in the West Coast offense. To my knowledge, Clausen has never run a WCO, and given that it takes years to develop the proper timing a WCO requires, putting him in one would be a poor idea.

Charlie Weis didn't run a West Coast Offense at Notre Dame, he ran the same offense Davidson tried to run in Carolina. The Erhardt-Perkins offense is all about doing multiple things out of a common base set, while Coryell is more about using a zillion sets, but executing a few basic things very, very well. EP requires better decision making once the ball is in play, Coryell needs you to be on your game before the snap. They share power running, play action, and deep passing as characteristics. I know I'm probably oversimplifying, but at a high level those are the similarities and differences.

So to your original question, scheme matters. And as to Jimmy's fit with Coryell, I believe it's a lot better than it would be with a WCO.

[CRA]

So to your original question, scheme matters. And as to Jimmy's fit with Coryell, I believe it's a lot better than it would be with a WCO.

So you think Clausen is better suited for an offense that attacks downfield rather than a WCO? Seriously?

Clausen pretty much admitted Weiss even told him they were going to ignore some of his mechanics b/c they were going to put an emphasis on getting the ball out quick.....therefore it wouldn't matter about his motion. Clausen was "pro ready"......he had been running a variation of the WCO. Weiss' scheme allowed him to get away w/ stuff and flaws.

Weiss and Davidson were not running the same offense. They asked two completely different things from QBs.

Coryell calls for him to sit in the pocket and make reads downfield (10-20 yards are key)......nothing about him in college, his coaches, and rookie year suggest he fits this offense or the one Fox ran. imo.