Jenson's OTB: Panthers Source on Edwards, Clausen

[CRA]

Not to butt into you guy's conversation.

But unless Jimmy changes his mechanics he is going to have a hard time using the middle of the field.

Brees is shorter but look at his release point. It is way over his head. Jimmy need to adapt a similar throwing motion or else he will be regulated to the sidelines on his throws.

exactly. even if he was comfortable in a pocket and didn't bail......he still has struggles b/c of his mechanics to complete basic plays to the middle.

[Cyberjag]

exactly. even if he was comfortable in a pocket and didn't bail......he still has struggles b/c of his mechanics to complete basic plays to the middle.

If it makes you feel any better...

Last year at this time, it was noted by a couple of scouting services that while Clausen had good mechanics, he tended to get sloppy when out of the pocket or on the run. This would be consistent with a guy who got a QB coach when he turned two. You wouldn't expect mechanics issues when he stood in the pocket and planted his feet. And I don't believe that's when he was whipping the ball side-arm.

That's something that can probably be fixed with good coaching, and he'll get that from Shula (look at what he did with Fiedler and Garrard). However, I feel like that sort of thing will take a little time. But with that said, trust in the pocket is more mental, and can probably be fixed a lot quicker. It's also something that could be schemed around as well--more quick passes, don't advertise the play, etc.

Batted down passes should be the least of our worries. The major questions here are whether Clausen will respond to Shula better than he did to Scherer, and if they'll have enough time to work together before the season to make an impact.

[CRA]

All I can say is that the receivers, backs, and tight ends in Cleveland must be the worst YAC group in NFL history. In 2007 the Browns averaged 6.5 yards per attempt, and 12.7 yards per catch. In 2008 those numbers fell to 5.2 and 10.7.

Obviously there were severe accuracy issues, and the receivers consistently caught the ball and fell forward right then. Except there weren't and they didn't.

Here's something to actually chew on that's backed by real numbers, and I'm only going to look at Cleveland's GOOD season under Chud (helps your case). Cleveland in 2007 was third in the league in 20+ yard passing plays with 53. So they averaged 3.3 deep completions per game. Now, if they completed all those long balls, why do you suppose they didn't get better than 12th in passing? And why is it that their yards per attempt were only 6.5?

The answer, of course, is pure Coryell. They ran the ball a lot. They threw short to their backs and short to intermediate to their Tight Ends a ton. And they released their WRs on a lot of plays, because you always want someone deep. When Anderson caught the defense going man deep, he just heaved it downfield. This is exactly what Delhomme did with Smitty when Henning was the OC here. And that's exactly how that offense is supposed to operate.

I'll spare you from having to argue that Delhomme had great deep accuracy, the system doesn't require it. It just needs you to throw it deep a few times a game to keep the safeties back. The beauty of it is, you don't even need to connect! Just make the defense know that you'll do it. And that's a VERY coach-able action.

We're going to have a power running offense that takes chances downfield, but it will also use a lot of passing to backs. And it will use the Tight End across the middle more. Both of these suit Clausen's skill set just fine.

The point is not that he WILL succeed (although I believe he will). The point is that there's nothing in the Coryell offense that will be more difficult than what he had last year, whereas in the WCO there is.

Running is important and every QB in every scheme is going to have some short passes.

however, 52% of of Anderson's yardage and 70% of his TDs came from when he got the ball into the hands of players 10 yards or further downfield. That doesn't fit Clausen. And again, going to the middle of the field which Winslow did also doesn't fit Clausen......he struggles sitting in the pocket and making those throws. That is why he had 11 completions despite playing in 13 games and starting 11 to the middle.

Rivera will need a QB that stays in the pocket and attacks downfield......Fox required the same despite running a different scheme. Clausen didn't do that in college and he showed last year he is simply doesn't have the potential to be that kind of QB. Weis knew the limitations b/c of Clausen's mechanics.....and Clausen practically said Weiss intentionally left his mecahnics alone as he was going to put a focus on Clausen just getting it as as quick as possible.

[Mr. Scot]

Does anybody know the Browns (owners)? They will let him retire. They don't really care. They will call his bluff. If Carson continues to try and strong arm the Bengals they will dig in even deeper and just let him retire.

Plus, all I am saying is the "source" from Cincy didn't say swap picks and a 4th. He said it would take at least a 1st round pick and a 4th round pick.

I'm sorry guys swapping picks and a 4th ain't happening.

You're trying to spin the source so that it's less likely because you want Newton. It's not that hard to figure out, but pretty much no one who's listened to what they said would read it like you do.

The exact words were "a first round pick would be involved...and then something like a third or a fourth". Swapping picks in the first and trading them a fourth fits that criteria.

And with regard to the Browns, they faced this situation once before. Boomer Esaiason wanted out, so the drafted David Klingler in the first as a replacement and shipped Esaiason out the following year. They could do the same thing again, only accelerated, as opposed to just letting Palmer retire and getting nothing in return. That's the scenario Marvin Lewis is pushing for.

[CRA]

If it makes you feel any better...

Last year at this time, it was noted by a couple of scouting services that while Clausen had good mechanics, he tended to get sloppy when out of the pocket or on the run. This would be consistent with a guy who got a QB coach when he turned two. You wouldn't expect mechanics issues when he stood in the pocket and planted his feet. And I don't believe that's when he was whipping the ball side-arm.

That's something that can probably be fixed with good coaching, and he'll get that from Shula (look at what he did with Fiedler and Garrard). However, I feel like that sort of thing will take a little time. But with that said, trust in the pocket is more mental, and can probably be fixed a lot quicker. It's also something that could be schemed around as well--more quick passes, don't advertise the play, etc.

Batted down passes should be the least of our worries. The major questions here are whether Clausen will respond to Shula better than he did to Scherer, and if they'll have enough time to work together before the season to make an impact.

Shula aint' gonna fix what Clausen has done his entire life in an offseason.....and Rivera doesn't have the time to waste on a QB who doesn't fit his system w/ a relatively low ceiling trying to develop him as he trashes more seasons. Rivera is gonna have to come in and immediately get this franchise going in the right direction or he will be a coordiantor again.....

batted down passes are a concern.....it shows even when Clausen stays w/ the play (which is rare) he struggles w/ basic plays going to the middle b/c of his size/mechanics.

Clausen is a dink and dunk QB. Nothing wrong w/ that....but you can't develop that kid into a downfield attacking QB. Waste of time.

[teeray]

You're trying to spin the source so that it's less likely because you want Newton. It's not that hard to figure out, but pretty much no one who's listened to what they said would read it like you do.

The exact words were "a first round pick would be involved...and then something like a third or a fourth". Swapping picks in the first and trading them a fourth fits that criteria.

And with regard to the Browns, they faced this situation once before. Boomer Esaiason wanted out, so the drafted David Klingler in the first as a replacement and shipped Esaiason out the following year. They could do the same thing again, only accelerated, as opposed to just letting Palmer retire and getting nothing in return. That's the scenario Marvin Lewis is pushing for.

That is not correct. I want us to draft Newton yes, but it has nothing to do with how I am interpreting the asking price.

The "source" said at the 13:00 mark it would take a first round pick and a 3rd/4th. It said NOTHING about swapping picks. The hosts starting talking about swapping the picks for whatever reason.

You just said it in your post. "A first round pick would be involved". I guess you are saying that swapping picks fits that criteria. But I understood it to mean that "a first round pick would be involved". Nothing in there about a swap.

If he said "Our number 1 pick would be involved" then maybe you could take it that way. That isn't the way it was presented.

All that being said, if I am wrong and all we have to do is swap picks and give up a 4th rounder I would be okay with that. I think you are dreaming though.

PS- How I "spin" what I heard will have no impact on the likeliness of a trade happening. That doesn't even make sense.

[Cyberjag]

Running is important and every QB in every scheme is going to have some short passes.

however, 52% of of Anderson's yardage and 70% of his TDs came from when he got the ball into the hands of players 10 yards or further downfield. That doesn't fit Clausen. And again, going to the middle of the field which Winslow did also doesn't fit Clausen......he struggles sitting in the pocket and making those throws. That is why he had 11 completions despite playing in 13 games and starting 11 to the middle.

Rivera will need a QB that stays in the pocket and attacks downfield......Fox required the same despite running a different scheme. Clausen didn't do that in college and he showed last year he is simply doesn't have the potential to be that kind of QB. Weis knew the limitations b/c of Clausen's mechanics.....and Clausen practically said Weiss intentionally left his mecahnics alone as he was going to put a focus on Clausen just getting it as as quick as possible.

So based on what was underlined I guess I'm supposed to assume that Anderson's short range accuracy was terrible? That he couldn't make a TD throw in the red zone?

I'm looking at http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00/touchdowns/passing/ and http://www.nfl.com/players/derekanderson/situationalstats?id=AND180512&season=2007 and http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7389&team=22&page=enc and can't really find the exact source of your stats.

If he got the ball in the hands of a receiver 10 yards down the field on 70% of his TD passes, then that means that of his 29 touchdowns in 2007, 20 of them were over 10 yards in the air. In his entire career, he's had 25 total touchdowns of over 10 yards. So, I guess that in 2007, he must have been completely out of character, because if what you say is true then the other four years only 21% of his touchdowns have come from 10+ yard passes.

Seriously, where are you coming up with these numbers?

And once more, if you don't mind. Please explain how, if most of Anderson's passes go for 10 yards or more, how is his average yards per completion in his best year only 12.7? That 2.7 yards is literally what you would get falling forward.

Your stats don't make sense to me, but I'm certainly interested in knowing more about them. :)

[Mr. Scot]

That is not correct. I want us to draft Newton yes, but it has nothing to do with how I am interpreting the asking price.

The "source" said at the 13:00 mark it would take a first round pick and a 3rd/4th. It said NOTHING about swapping picks. The hosts starting talking about swapping the picks for whatever reason.

You just said it in your post. "A first round pick would be involved". I guess you are saying that swapping picks fits that criteria. But I understood it to mean that "a first round pick would be involved". Nothing in there about a swap.

If he said "Our number 1 pick would be involved" then maybe you could take it that way. That isn't the way it was presented.

All that being said, if I am wrong and all we have to do is swap picks and give up a 4th rounder I would be okay with that. I think you are dreaming though.

PS- How I "spin" what I heard will have no impact on the likeliness of a trade happening. That doesn't even make sense.

Here's a tip. If we swap the #1 and the #4, then a first round pick is "involved".

How likely it is still probably depends on Marvin Lewis convincing Mike Brown that it's better to get something than nothing. As mentioned though, the Bengals moved Esaiason after a similar situation. This would just be an accelerated version of that same deal.

As to whether the Panthers would be interested, unknown; but given the Zampese connection and the desire for a franchise QB, reasonable to think.

[Cyberjag]

Shula aint' gonna fix what Clausen has done his entire life in an offseason.....and Rivera doesn't have the time to waste on a QB who doesn't fit his system w/ a relatively low ceiling trying to develop him as he trashes more seasons. Rivera is gonna have to come in and immediately get this franchise going in the right direction or he will be a coordiantor again.....

batted down passes are a concern.....it shows even when Clausen stays w/ the play (which is rare) he struggles w/ basic plays going to the middle b/c of his size/mechanics.

Clausen is a dink and dunk QB. Nothing wrong w/ that....but you can't develop that kid into a downfield attacking QB. Waste of time.

Nearly every scouting service out there completely disagreed with your assessment last year at this time. Apparently what he's done his entire life was completely undone last season, but can't be fixed by Shula in one season. :rolleyes:

BTW, Clausen had 15 batted passes last year, 1 per game. Wow...

[CRA]

So based on what was underlined I guess I'm supposed to assume that Anderson's short range accuracy was terrible? That he couldn't make a TD throw in the red zone?

I'm looking at http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00/touchdowns/passing/ and http://www.nfl.com/players/derekanderson/situationalstats?id=AND180512&season=2007 and http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7389&team=22&page=enc and can't really find the exact source of your stats.

If he got the ball in the hands of a receiver 10 yards down the field on 70% of his TD passes, then that means that of his 29 touchdowns in 2007, 20 of them were over 10 yards in the air. In his entire career, he's had 25 total touchdowns of over 10 yards. So, I guess that in 2007, he must have been completely out of character, because if what you say is true then the other four years only 21% of his touchdowns have come from 10+ yard passes.

Seriously, where are you coming up with these numbers?

And once more, if you don't mind. Please explain how, if most of Anderson's passes go for 10 yards or more, how is his average yards per completion in his best year only 12.7? That 2.7 yards is literally what you would get falling forward.

Your stats don't make sense to me, but I'm certainly interested in knowing more about them. :)

If you want the stats look here: (you find it my looking up the player, going to stats and then selecting "splits". Pretty good stuff on QBs.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8627&sYear=2007

scroll down to "by pass play" and it breaks down as "pass thrown"...it shows how far the pass was and the production from them. It doesn't count a 1 yard throw w/ 11 YAC as a 10+ pass thrown.

yes, in 2007 he had 20 TDs that were from throws 10 yards or further downfield.

and yes, it was out of character, that is why he was a Pro Bowler in 07 and a bum every other season.

I didn't say most of his passes go for 10 yards or more. I said most of his production (yards and TDs) came from passes 10 yards or more.

[YourMomsLover]

Nearly every scouting service out there completely disagreed with your assessment last year at this time. Apparently what he's done his entire life was completely undone last season, but can't be fixed by Shula in one season. :rolleyes:

BTW, Clausen had 15 batted passes last year, 1 per game. Wow...

Congratulations! You are the winner of the "150th Post Award"!!! :D

[prowler2k8]

+1.

I hope Armanti Edwards becomes a super star just so he can stick it up John Fox's stubborn a**.

:iamwithstupid: LOL! Agree w you and Mr. Scot.

[Cyberjag]

If you want the stats look here: (you find it my looking up the player, going to stats and then selecting "splits". Pretty good stuff on QBs.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8627&sYear=2007

scroll down to "by pass play" and it breaks down as "pass thrown"...it shows how far the pass was and the production from them. It doesn't count a 1 yard throw w/ 11 YAC as a 10+ pass thrown.

yes, in 2007 he had 20 TDs that were from throws 10 yards or further downfield.

and yes, it was out of character, that is why he was a Pro Bowler in 07 and a bum every other season.

I didn't say most of his passes go for 10 yards or more. I said most of his production (yards and TDs) came from passes 10 yards or more.

That's interesting stuff, it's at odds with ProFootballReference. Unless he has only thrown 20% of his TDs outside that year on more than 10 yard passes, and that would just be bizarre.

What I see there is that 328 of his attempts were short, for under 10 yards. Another 157 were in the intermediate range (10-20), and he only threw long 42 times. I have no doubt that Clausen can do that, as long as the OC doesn't telegraph the plays.

They don't have the same splits for NCAA, but take a look at Clausen's page: http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/splits?playerId=231813&year=2009

Those YPA numbers are sick, particularly in short yardage. He definitely aired the ball out there, and that statement is also borne out by countless comments from scouting services. He's got talent, he showed it for years at every level. And last year was just a nightmare season for him. I know a lot of people want to pin the blame on him for 100% of the stuff that went wrong, but I'm not one of them.

I really think that with a coaching staff who's dedicated to long-term success at Carolina, Clausen is going to get very different treatment. And just as he did in his sophomore year at Notre Dame, and just as most QBs who start a lot and struggle as rookies do, he's going to make a huge improvement in his second year.

[Udogg]

I just want to fix this "franchise" QB issue. Be it someone from the draft or someone on the roster. I am not a Jimmy believer because I saw no progress imo. However if coaching staff feels he can be salvaged and we address the DT position then so be it. However I think we will regret not taking a QB this year. Hopefully I am wrong.