Want ot wait till after the first round to get a QB??

[teeray]

Ah I see, you misunderstood what they wrote.

Just because he stayed in to pass on pass plays doesn't mean he went through progressions. He continued to do exactly what he was supposed to do, make a quick read and chuck it.

As well as those guys had done to break things down, a lot of Cam's pass/run plays are very difficult to distinguish between a one read and run play and a fake and run play, or a simple run play. Any break down they do will always be subjective and whilst sound reasoning, it really can't be taken for fact.

I really would love someone to find me 10-20 passing plays where he gets to his 3rd read, because then I might be more on board. That's whilst ignoring the red flags in his past, his questionable at best footwork in the pocket and his ability to throw into coverage.

Well then I guess I am surprised that with all the great coaches in the SEC it is amazing that Auburn's offense was so well designed that @90% of the passing plays the first read was open.

I guess everyone in America will watch Auburn tape and get their first reads open on every play.

According to you guys defenses will become irrelevant bc we have discovered the first offense in the history of football that the first read was open on every play, to the point where the QB nearly had the highest QB rating in NCAA history.

Bravo Gus Malzhan!! You will go down as the first coach to crack the defensive code and have an unstoppable offense that relies on looking to one receiver. :smilielol5::rofl::rofl::rofl::smilielol5:

[teeray]

No you have misunderstood this as well. The players playing ina pro style offense aren't given credit for it, it just makes evaluating them easier. Spread offense guys are usually given matchup heaven and much bigger windows to throw in and thus it makes it much harder to evaluate them.

Bullsh*t. They are given credit for the offense they were in. it is in every pro style QB scouting report, "he is pro ready bc of the offense he played in college".

It is the single most overrated fact in evaluating a QB. That is why a 6'2 guy with a low and slow release can get a top ten grade. While a 6'6 250 guy with better throwing mechanics has to fight for his life.

[teeray]

Why top 44 picks? Who fell between 33 & 44?

Garrard and Orton ARE good QBs, just look at the last couple of years for them.

I also really scratch my head when people think the one read-and-run concept is 'debunked. I guess you guys haven't bothered to check him out and are relying on 2nd-3rd hand information from independent fan based draft write ups?

Last the there was a video posted and people convinced themselves he had made up to 4-5 reads on a play, when only 2 receivers were sent out on routes and he didn't look in the direction of one. People really will see what they want to see.

Elite Athlete

Elite Potential

Questionable Pro QB

Questionable Character

You don't draft a project with the #1 pick.

Two things. I made mention of the other QB taken in the second round before 44. That was Drew Brees. No one else of any relevance is in there.

And this video that people they sent only two receivers on a play.

You guys realize that going through progressions and finding open receivers isn't done by looking at the receivers right?? A QB knows where his receivers are going to be.

Going through progressions is looking at the defense not the receivers. Where the defense is dictates what receiver should be open or where the receiver should be.

So the simple fact that you are concerned with whether he "looked" at a receiver is irrelevant and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what you are looking at.

People will see what they want to see but you can't see anything if you are blind or ignorant.

[Urrymonster]

Well then I guess I am surprised that with all the great coaches in the SEC it is amazing that Auburn's offense was so well designed that @90% of the passing plays the first read was open.

I guess everyone in America will watch Auburn tape and get their first reads open on every play.

According to you guys defenses will become irrelevant bc we have discovered the first offense in the history of football that the first read was open on every play, to the point where the QB nearly had the highest QB rating in NCAA history.

Bravo Gus Malzhan!! You will go down as the first coach to crack the defensive code and have an unstoppable offense that relies on looking to one receiver. :smilielol5::rofl::rofl::rofl::smilielol5:

You are completely missing the point. His system was built around his ability to run and his ability to scramble and this is what made him dangerous.

If you were a DC, would you force him to beat you with his arm or his legs? I am sorry to spoil your mini love-fest, but Cam had it about as easy as it gets in the passing game and he had teams overloading the LoS and run blitzing him to force him to make decisions with the ball.

If my request was as absurd as you made it out, actually go and find me those plays.

[Urrymonster]

Bullsh*t. They are given credit for the offense they were in. it is in every pro style QB scouting report, "he is pro ready bc of the offense he played in college".

It is the single most overrated fact in evaluating a QB. That is why a 6'2 guy with a low and slow release can get a top ten grade. While a 6'6 250 guy with better throwing mechanics has to fight for his life.

Fight for his life? :rolleyes:

My God you are deluded. Cam Newton is the media darling of the whole NFL draft.

[Jackofalltrades]

Fight for his life? :rolleyes:

My God you are deluded. Cam Newton is the media darling of the whole NFL draft.

That's why I've stopped arguing with him, it's his point of view or none at all. He's supposedly "debunked" all negatives about Cam while on hiatus from his Director of College Scouting for God gig.

The all knowing teeray. Scouts who get paid for their research and opinion pay attention to what system QB's come out of?

Nonsense!

[rayzor]

we don't want to draft a project with the #1 overall.

every draft pick is a project.

so what we're saying is that we should never draft anyone with the #1 overall....esp a QB.

awesome stuff in here.

[Urrymonster]

Two things. I made mention of the other QB taken in the second round before 44. That was Drew Brees. No one else of any relevance is in there.

And this video that people they sent only two receivers on a play.

You guys realize that going through progressions and finding open receivers isn't done by looking at the receivers right?? A QB knows where his receivers are going to be.

Going through progressions is looking at the defense not the receivers. Where the defense is dictates what receiver should be open or where the receiver should be.

So the simple fact that you are concerned with whether he "looked" at a receiver is irrelevant and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what you are looking at.

People will see what they want to see but you can't see anything if you are blind or ignorant.

:rolleyes:

Again focusing on the irrelevant things to try and formulate an argument.

Prey tell me how he is supposed to ascertain defences coverages, depth of drop and which receiver will be favoured matchup wise if he is looking in a different direction to where his receivers are running their routes?

Believe it or not, but progressions actually include the routes of receivers as well, as the pre-snap reads will indicate which receiver is going to be able to find the gaps in coverage and who will need to make adjustments based on coverages. The receiver route will dictate how players react in zone, or if they are double covered via 'help over the top', so to think that you just pay attention to the defence is naive at best.

It's all and the same thing and most of the progressions you are thinking of occur pre-snap.

I will stand by the fact you can't learn anything about the defence if you are looking to an area of the field where there are no receivers...

[Urrymonster]

we don't want to draft a project with the #1 overall.

every draft pick is a project.

so what we're saying is that we should never draft anyone with the #1 overall....esp a QB.

awesome stuff in here.

You frustrate me so much.

Half the time you make really valid and rational arguments and discussion, then follow it up with off the cuff smart-ass remarks which take thigns completely out of context.

Honestly. You must recognise that he has a much bigger learning curve than a prospect like AJ Green? Surely you can accept that his system is so foreign to what we will be using, that he will be realistically needing an entire season on the sidelines before he is ready to play in real-time? Surely you can appreciate that the amount of running QBs who have successfully transitioned into the NFL are few and far between, with none obtaining longevity because of their legs?

Cam has an incredible ceiling on his potential IF he proves he has the smarts to actually pick up a pro system. If he can't then he will just be an exceptionally gifted athlete playing at QB.

So many other players have the benefit of being much much much more pro ready than he is, yet people refuse to acknowledge that this makes him a more risky pick.

[teeray]

:rolleyes:

Again focusing on the irrelevant things to try and formulate an argument.

Prey tell me how he is supposed to ascertain defences coverages, depth of drop and which receiver will be favoured matchup wise if he is looking in a different direction to where his receivers are running their routes?

Believe it or not, but progressions actually include the routes of receivers as well, as the pre-snap reads will indicate which receiver is going to be able to find the gaps in coverage and who will need to make adjustments based on coverages. The receiver route will dictate how players react in zone, or if they are double covered via 'help over the top', so to think that you just pay attention to the defence is naive at best.

It's all and the same thing and most of the progressions you are thinking of occur pre-snap.

I will stand by the fact you can't learn anything about the defence if you are looking to an area of the field where there are no receivers...

And I completely disagree with that. Teams as well coached as SEC teams desguise defenses well so you have to read the defense post snap. If not you will be fooled and make bad decisions. Nice try though

[Urrymonster]

And I completely disagree with that. Teams as well coached as SEC teams desguise defenses well so you have to read the defense post snap. If not you will be fooled and make bad decisions. Nice try though

The is a completely meaningless statement. You disagree with what exactly? I didn't say anything about what you commented on.

All defences try and disguise what they do. Unbelievably SEC defences are nothing compared to the NFL, neither are the coordinators. That is why I explained that you need to read the defence and see your receivers adjustments to be able to determine the best pass.

Most of the pre-snap reads are in fact impossible to disguise, so simply claiming everything is done post-snap is ridiculous.

I really don't know what you are even arguing about any more.

Can you even accept that Cam isn't perfect?

[teeray]

The is a completely meaningless statement. You disagree with what exactly? I didn't say anything about what you commented on.

All defences try and disguise what they do. Unbelievably SEC defences are nothing compared to the NFL, neither are the coordinators. That is why I explained that you need to read the defence and see your receivers adjustments to be able to determine the best pass.

Most of the pre-snap reads are in fact impossible to disguise, so simply claiming everything is done post-snap is ridiculous.

I really don't know what you are even arguing about any more.

Can you even accept that Cam isn't perfect?

Absolutely, only his imperfections are the similar to what most QB's coming out of college.

I just feel like he has been held to higher standard and has been victim to stereotypes and misinterpretations about the offense he ran and his ability to do the things necessary to become a big time pro.

I get a little tired of the trivializing of what he accomplished in college.

He has flaws but to me they aren't anything about his physical abilities or the offense he ran in college.

It is about his character. That is what I am interested to hear about.

But I have studied QB's for ten years and I haven't seen ANY questions in regards to his fundamentals or ability to diagnose a defense and make the correct throw. Things he need to clean up yes (especially his footwork), but those things I believe are minor in nature.

The questions I have are the same I have for ANY QB coming out of college. Adjusting to the speed, reading the defenses, making good decisions, etc.

My experience has shown me that the type of offense you ran in college does not seem to matter in making those adjustments.

I think he is a special talent that could be a once in a decade type talent. I am not alone on that assessment. many scouts agree with me.

And I get a little defensive when people attack a kid for reasons I deem unfair.

[CRA]

Cam has an incredible ceiling on his potential IF he proves he has the smarts to actually pick up a pro system. If he can't then he will just be an exceptionally gifted athlete playing at QB.

So many other players have the benefit of being much much much more pro ready than he is, yet people refuse to acknowledge that this makes him a more risky pick.

I think playing in a "pro ready" offense is overrated. Talent is more important. Cam has loads of it that can translate over to the NFL.

[rayzor]

You frustrate me so much.

Half the time you make really valid and rational arguments and discussion, then follow it up with off the cuff smart-ass remarks which take thigns completely out of context.

Honestly. You must recognise that he has a much bigger learning curve than a prospect like AJ Green? Surely you can accept that his system is so foreign to what we will be using, that he will be realistically needing an entire season on the sidelines before he is ready to play in real-time? Surely you can appreciate that the amount of running QBs who have successfully transitioned into the NFL are few and far between, with none obtaining longevity because of their legs?

Cam has an incredible ceiling on his potential IF he proves he has the smarts to actually pick up a pro system. If he can't then he will just be an exceptionally gifted athlete playing at QB.

So many other players have the benefit of being much much much more pro ready than he is, yet people refuse to acknowledge that this makes him a more risky pick.

people in here have an unrealistic expectation of what a first pick overall should be....esp in regards to QB.

the player has to start right away and the QB has to be perfect. for some reason the QB is set to a higher standard than every other player.

i know you and others are probably going to say that getting the QB wrong will set a team back further behind than any other position, but i just don't think thats true. a blown first round pick is a blown first round pick. you get it wrong and you have just blown a perfectly good pick and probably a good bit of money. people are just scared of the high profile pick busting, but whats funny is that QBs don't have a higher bust rate than most positions.

what is going to set this franchise back is they idea that the QB has to be QB or someone just like him. what is really more likely to set the franchise back a few years is sitting on our collective asses waiting for that perfect QB to come around. we're afraid of taking a risk.

the idea that gets tossed around and accepted as conventional wisdom is the hold off because there are better choices next year and/or pick up an older vet as a stop gap while we wait for a young guy that we have around already or some guy we draft next year. as was said in that other thread discussing it, if that was such a great idea, more people would be doing it. we would also be seeing it work but we aren't seeing much of it and when we see it, it isn't working.

so why should we do it?

and in regards to waiting till next year to draft one, what makes anyone think that we will have access to a great prospect next year? luck still might supposedly be the only QB worth a crap and if he is, then he will go to the team with the first pick overall, which very well will not be us. so then what? we wait until the next year?

do we try drafting one in a later round? thats a BS idea. you are taking much more of a risk overall by hoping that one of the guys you find in the 2nd or later rounds can do the job. and we might be one of the lucky few who is able to find their franchise QB in the later rounds, but that is a HUGE crapshoot. if we are serious about getting a franchise QB, we wouldn't mess with any QB after the first round. best chance we have is by taking one in the first.

when luck was an option for us this year, i thknk the possible choice of him really set the bar too high. now, unless he is the perfect QB, we don't want him. our butts are still raw from that reaming. we need to get over that. any QB we pick is going to have a good bit of risk involved. any QB we pick is going to be a project...even andrew frikkin luck would be a project.

we want them to be able to come in right away and play like a stud. you know what? that isn't going to happen. not even for a first overall, no matter what year you draft them. they all will have a learning curve.

you asked about newton's learning curve. yes, there will be one and it will be greater than for say a WR like green or a CB like peterson. here's the deal with that...the QB is a harder job to play. for any QB the learning curve is greater than with other positions. that doesn't mean that we should avoid them, but i think that most in here would just because they are afraid of a QB having to take a couple years before he gets it right.

newton is a good prospect. you might find some who say he isn't a first overall pick (even though that number is shrinking), but very few would take him out of the first round. why? because he's good. very good. his ceiling is incredibly high.

if we draft him most likely he will be starting...thats just the way it goes and for good reasons, teams are realizing how beneficial it is to get the QB in there early and get his knocks and get his chemistry with his team growing. they know he will be able to learn quicker in the game and with solid coaching/teaching than from watching on the sidelines. they have also figured out how to put the QB in a situation that he doesn't implode in like detroit did with harrington and the texans did with carr. they got it figured out and it has been really successful.

newton isn't a worse pick than all of the guys who have gotten picked in the past few years in the first round and started. he is on the level with most of them. there is very little reason why he couldn't go in the game with a similar game plan and do just as well. if our coaching staff is worth a crap, they will be able to find a way to make it work. you've got to have some faith in what they can do.

if he does well on the wonderlic and interviews well, you better be getting ready for him to be our selection.

i guarantee you hat this coaching staff is a lot more intent on getting the QB situation fixed than most of you are. most of you are still stuck with fox's mentality that tries to play it safe, eliminating risk, but ending up being nothing more than an average team.